Squirrel clan trade mechanics are not fun

[CNC]

You can't get Jotuns in a game vs squirrel if you are not squirrel yourself. I don't think that's fun. It removes a major mechanic from the game for anyone not playing the new DLC.

[LeinY]

well tgey get less gold and you can just win with bigger army then

[Annoyingnome]

That's kinda the point of the clan...

[CNC]

Originally posted by Annoyingnome:

That's kinda the point of the clan...

The point of the clan is to remove a major mechanic from the game for all the other players? Sound like terrible game design, to me. That would be like "hey, we're introducing a new clan, the clan of the duck. When someone is playing the duck clan if you are not playing the duck clan you cannot win a wisdom victory. That's it, folks, that's what this clan does"

Yeah, not fun.

[CeeRo]

People get jotuns in games?

[Fauxsteel]

+1 Bored of the clan already. Faster than any of the other dlcs, even faster than I was when Snake released (back when Skirmishers weren't unique to their clan).

Squirrel brings nothing new to the game other than being a support clan to other clans. if you're holding feasts for yourself and not your team (assuming you're not playing single player), you're doing it wrong.

- The Warchief is a reskin. His 'eeeunnngh' voice is also just a boring standard one, rather than the unique Scottsman we had in his trailer.

- No new units

- Their unique Town Hall is a silo-tree-thing? (i haven't really played them since unlocking it)

- The military tree would make Dragon blush

- Unloreful, they just hoard food like regular squirrels.

- Unique victory is a bust

Clan feels uninspired. I'd rather have a clan with a bannerman, with the ability to toggle buff types.

I'd rather see a fantastical element added. This clan with a price tag on it.
There are no regrets purchasing it as I like the game and I have no problem supporting the developers.

However, it does not change that I had my doubts about the clan before the purchase and still have them after.

TLDR: It's new, but boring. Stacking cooking + other players' feast isn't innovative.

[CNC]

Originally posted by Fauxsteel:

+1 Bored of the clan already. Faster than any of the other dlcs, even faster than I was when Snake released (back when Skirmishers weren't unique to their clan).

Squirrel brings nothing new to the game other than being a support clan to other clans. if you're holding feasts for yourself and not your team (assuming you're not playing single player), you're doing it wrong.

- The Warchief is a reskin. His 'eeeunnngh' voice is also just a boring standard one, rather than the unique Scottsman we had in his trailer.

- No new units

- Their unique Town Hall is a silo-tree-thing? (i haven't really played them since unlocking it)

- The military tree would make Dragon blush

- Unloreful, they just hoard food like regular squirrels.

- Unique victory is a bust

Clan feels uninspired. I'd rather have a clan with a bannerman, with the ability to toggle buff types.

I'd rather see a fantastical element added. This clan with a price tag on it.
There are no regrets purchasing it as I like the game and I have no problem supporting the developers.

However, it does not change that I had my doubts about the clan before the purchase and still have them after.

TLDR: It's new, but boring. Stacking cooking + other players' feast isn't innovative.

It's the first DLC that I haven't bought. I have zero interest in buying it. I even bought all the others even though some of them I never play, I just did it for encouragement to Shiro, but I don't feel like doing that anymore.

[CNC]

Originally posted by Kurisu:

Originally posted by SupaKupaTrupa:

The point of the clan is to remove a major mechanic from the game for all the other players? Sound like terrible game design, to me. That would be like "hey, we're introducing a new clan, the clan of the duck. When someone is playing the duck clan if you are not playing the duck clan you cannot win a wisdom victory. That's it, folks, that's what this clan does"

Yeah, not fun.

umm there's already a DLC clan that functions like that.... Are you dumb? this your first RTS? If you play Civ you play to your civs strengths. A heavy religious civ is going to dominate that aspect of the game and no one else can keep up with them? you really too stupid to know how this works? Someone even gave you a reasonable counter...If squirrel does this trade they have no gold meaning they cant fund an army meaning you run them over with yours??

I'm happy to have a discussion and happy to hear people disagree with me, but I'm under no obligation to respond to flaming and vitriol. Try making your point again without the seriously aggressive and flaming tone. This is a video game, no need for that.

[Fauxsteel]

Originally posted by Kurisu:

Originally posted by SupaKupaTrupa:

The point of the clan is to remove a major mechanic from the game for all the other players? Sound like terrible game design, to me. That would be like "hey, we're introducing a new clan, the clan of the duck. When someone is playing the duck clan if you are not playing the duck clan you cannot win a wisdom victory. That's it, folks, that's what this clan does"

Yeah, not fun.

umm there's already a DLC clan that functions like that.... Are you dumb? this your first RTS? If you play Civ you play to your civs strengths. A heavy religious civ is going to dominate that aspect of the game and no one else can keep up with them? you really too stupid to know how this works? Someone even gave you a reasonable counter...If squirrel does this trade they have no gold meaning they cant fund an army meaning you run them over with yours??

You are correct about playing to a clan's strength. Where you are wrong is attacking the player without a proper argument.

When insulting someone's intelligence in such a way; you come off as less educated = /

Maybe have a discussion with the lad, rather than attack him.

[JayTwoPointOh [Shiro]]

Hey guys,

Regarding the trading stuff, this is a bug and one we should have resolved in the coming days.

In response to the other feedback towards Squirrel, we are currently collecting and reviewing everything we have heard across the forums and will be adjusting some things in response asap.

Thanks for your help here everyone,
James

[Blue]

On paper I might be inclined to agree with the aforementioned removal of a game-mechanic.
But lets face reality, getting Jötun is far from something you pull of early. so theres a good chance to work against it. Not to mention there usually are two Jötunn on a map, so get the ones squirrel isnt going for.
Squirrels main mechanics are hoarding right before the winter and foodbuffs, so if you hit them right around that time, reduce their economy, maybe even ransack an area, theyre going to have a far worse time than you, considering you dont just overrun them with your superior army.
Which also was mentioned, their army in general is lackluster, the only good thing is they can get a warchief early, but thats about it.

Of course they can get fed, if you give them the time they need they can stockpile ressources and ingredients, but hitting them hard early on when theyre most vulnerable just means you can have the Jötunn afterswards and one less rival.

Apart from that, theres clans that excel in certain areas, wolf and lynx in warfare, boar in expansion and so on, so why is it an issue if squirrel is friends with neutrals? theyre no real win condition and take way too much time to befriend anyways in a real game.

[CNC]

Originally posted by Blue:

On paper I might be inclined to agree with the aforementioned removal of a game-mechanic.
But lets face reality, getting Jötun is far from something you pull of early. so theres a good chance to work against it. Not to mention there usually are two Jötunn on a map, so get the ones squirrel isnt going for.
Squirrels main mechanics are hoarding right before the winter and foodbuffs, so if you hit them right around that time, reduce their economy, maybe even ransack an area, theyre going to have a far worse time than you, considering you dont just overrun them with your superior army.
Which also was mentioned, their army in general is lackluster, the only good thing is they can get a warchief early, but thats about it.

Of course they can get fed, if you give them the time they need they can stockpile ressources and ingredients, but hitting them hard early on when theyre most vulnerable just means you can have the Jötunn afterswards and one less rival.

Apart from that, theres clans that excel in certain areas, wolf and lynx in warfare, boar in expansion and so on, so why is it an issue if squirrel is friends with neutrals? theyre no real win condition and take way too much time to befriend anyways in a real game.

I disagree. I said before I have no problem with a clan being slightly better at something than other clans. But if you compete for a jotun with a squirrel player you will lose, no matter what. Yes, yes, you say just invade/attack him. That doesn't work in FFA games.
You could say who cares about FFA and FFA players should just shut up and go play something else. Maybe we should.

[Fauxsteel]

Originally posted by SupaKupaTrupa:

Originally posted by Blue:

On paper I might be inclined to agree with the aforementioned removal of a game-mechanic.
But lets face reality, getting Jötun is far from something you pull of early. so theres a good chance to work against it. Not to mention there usually are two Jötunn on a map, so get the ones squirrel isnt going for.
Squirrels main mechanics are hoarding right before the winter and foodbuffs, so if you hit them right around that time, reduce their economy, maybe even ransack an area, theyre going to have a far worse time than you, considering you dont just overrun them with your superior army.
Which also was mentioned, their army in general is lackluster, the only good thing is they can get a warchief early, but thats about it.

Of course they can get fed, if you give them the time they need they can stockpile ressources and ingredients, but hitting them hard early on when theyre most vulnerable just means you can have the Jötunn afterswards and one less rival.

Apart from that, theres clans that excel in certain areas, wolf and lynx in warfare, boar in expansion and so on, so why is it an issue if squirrel is friends with neutrals? theyre no real win condition and take way too much time to befriend anyways in a real game.

I disagree. I said before I have no problem with a clan being slightly better at something than other clans. But if you compete for a jotun with a squirrel player you will lose, no matter what. Yes, yes, you say just invade/attack him. That doesn't work in FFA games.
You could say who cares about FFA and FFA players should just shut up and go play something else. Maybe we should.

To be honest, Squirrel have a really weak and boring military.
I also find the neutrals to not be very useful outside of fame kills and trade income.
Without a teammate to cook for, I can't imagine playing Squirrel in a competitive environment.

The only time where I see the lore to be interesting is if it holds a chokepoint and you are able to stave off your enemy while pushing for an alternate victory.

I am just unimpressed with the clan and (while not dismissing your concerns in FFA) find them rather weak compared to base clans when standing on its own.

[Blue]

Originally posted by SupaKupaTrupa:

I disagree. I said before I have no problem with a clan being slightly better at something than other clans. But if you compete for a jotun with a squirrel player you will lose, no matter what. Yes, yes, you say just invade/attack him. That doesn't work in FFA games.
You could say who cares about FFA and FFA players should just shut up and go play something else. Maybe we should.

So it is not about a general strength of the clan, but a strength in a really imbalanced mode? Then again, not like 1vs1 is truly balanced and every clan is as strong as the other. For true balance we need symetric maps and only one clan everyone has to play.

Not to mention you saying it is good that things change, for example when boar was patched strong you liked that.

So this feels more of a "I could play how I liked because I played X, but now that I cant do what I want, yet others can do different things and succeed" you seem angry and fling some half baked, rude comments around. why rude? noone here said you or anyone you play with is supposed to shut up and play something else. Why would I dare to say that? You enjoy the game, but you also should take a step back and watch, analyze and try to make decent suggestions.

You might be angry, I get that, but we here are trying to argue, discuss and not get attacked by you one moment and then just silently concede so you get your way.

So a few points:
-Okay, its a FFA situation. Is any other clan really weak or strong at something in ffa?
-It certainly can be hard to attack another one, depending on your positions. but isnt that also one of the upsides of FFA? you play with big maps, usually only have to deal with two neighbours. diplomacy comes to mind, other games with FFAs have that and im sure other ppl wouldnt be happy either with squirrel keeping them for themself.
-Then teamgames could be considered unfair as well, Squirrel can give their teammates huge buffs (30def and missile defense, 7base production to everything etc)
-what happens if you compete with a warfare clan for domination victory? youre at a disadvantage usually (more clans than not are not mainly about domination victory, though a few have a decent military techs)
-what do you do when a player kills the Jötunn when you nearly have them befriended?

I hope you see what im trying to get at. True balance cannot be achieved, neither should it. Theres too many variables, starting from small things like map-generation, tile layout, even events during a game. and thats not factoring all the gamemodes, different playstyles, bugs, features etc in.

Im not proposing to leave everything as is, but just saying things are bad cause you dont get what you want isnt a real argument unless you try to be constructive and not just point out negatives to you. Because this isnt a bug and just saying "hey I dont like the engine northgard runs on" (as an example) wont change a lot.

So my question is, what can be done? Idea behind rumour mongering is that when squirrel befriends people the neutrals occasionally attack em, I guess thats one of the reasons why others get the ability to befriend them removed. Then again, theres myrkalfar who attack you until befriended.
So how can you leave said advantage to squirrel, for which they pay heavily (yes, gifting is simply removing production), yet making it at least not-unfun to play against?

As I mentioned earlier, there usually should be two Jötunn-camps on the map. Wouldnt simply befriending the other be an option? Since players can only befriend one Jötunn.

Maybe reduce gifted ressources a bit? instead of 2 per merchant make it 1.5? It still would be faster, but for one youd get more time to do something or befriend em (dont forget, amount traded counts not time) and make it so that there always is a second Jötunn camp?

[CNC]

Originally posted by Blue:

Originally posted by SupaKupaTrupa:

I disagree. I said before I have no problem with a clan being slightly better at something than other clans. But if you compete for a jotun with a squirrel player you will lose, no matter what. Yes, yes, you say just invade/attack him. That doesn't work in FFA games.
You could say who cares about FFA and FFA players should just shut up and go play something else. Maybe we should.

So it is not about a general strength of the clan, but a strength in a really imbalanced mode? Then again, not like 1vs1 is truly balanced and every clan is as strong as the other. For true balance we need symetric maps and only one clan everyone has to play.

Not to mention you saying it is good that things change, for example when boar was patched strong you liked that.

So this feels more of a "I could play how I liked because I played X, but now that I cant do what I want, yet others can do different things and succeed" you seem angry and fling some half baked, rude comments around. why rude? noone here said you or anyone you play with is supposed to shut up and play something else. Why would I dare to say that? You enjoy the game, but you also should take a step back and watch, analyze and try to make decent suggestions.

You might be angry, I get that, but we here are trying to argue, discuss and not get attacked by you one moment and then just silently concede so you get your way.

So a few points:
-Okay, its a FFA situation. Is any other clan really weak or strong at something in ffa?
-It certainly can be hard to attack another one, depending on your positions. but isnt that also one of the upsides of FFA? you play with big maps, usually only have to deal with two neighbours. diplomacy comes to mind, other games with FFAs have that and im sure other ppl wouldnt be happy either with squirrel keeping them for themself.
-Then teamgames could be considered unfair as well, Squirrel can give their teammates huge buffs (30def and missile defense, 7base production to everything etc)
-what happens if you compete with a warfare clan for domination victory? youre at a disadvantage usually (more clans than not are not mainly about domination victory, though a few have a decent military techs)
-what do you do when a player kills the Jötunn when you nearly have them befriended?

I hope you see what im trying to get at. True balance cannot be achieved, neither should it. Theres too many variables, starting from small things like map-generation, tile layout, even events during a game. and thats not factoring all the gamemodes, different playstyles, bugs, features etc in.

Im not proposing to leave everything as is, but just saying things are bad cause you dont get what you want isnt a real argument unless you try to be constructive and not just point out negatives to you. Because this isnt a bug and just saying "hey I dont like the engine northgard runs on" (as an example) wont change a lot.

So my question is, what can be done? Idea behind rumour mongering is that when squirrel befriends people the neutrals occasionally attack em, I guess thats one of the reasons why others get the ability to befriend them removed. Then again, theres myrkalfar who attack you until befriended.
So how can you leave said advantage to squirrel, for which they pay heavily (yes, gifting is simply removing production), yet making it at least not-unfun to play against?

As I mentioned earlier, there usually should be two Jötunn-camps on the map. Wouldnt simply befriending the other be an option? Since players can only befriend one Jötunn.

Maybe reduce gifted ressources a bit? instead of 2 per merchant make it 1.5? It still would be faster, but for one youd get more time to do something or befriend em (dont forget, amount traded counts not time) and make it so that there always is a second Jötunn camp?

It just doesn't work. In an 8 player game, if there are 2 squirrels, you basically just treat the jotnar ally mechanic as if it doesn't exist.
I guess I need to repeat myself that this isn't about balance. Yes, I've complained about balance before but this particular issue is not about balance. I don't think the squirrel clan is overpowered, nor is the ability to get a Jotnar overpowered. I just think it's boring that no one else can do it when squirrels are in the game. I would rather see the squirrel clan get a unique ability that doesn't remove an interesting mechanic in the game for everyone else.
As I said before, it would be like if a new clan was introduced that simply took a victory condition off the table for everyone else. Like, "hey everyone, it's the clan of the goose, and when a goose is in the game, the other players can't win by fame".
That doesn't sound fun. You shouldn't take things away from players. Give them options. If you make a new clan, add options to the game, don't take them away.

[Blue]

Aight, so you ignore everything I say, dont make any constructive suggestion and complain that its unfair.

As for your goose clan, heard theres stag. gets quite a lot of fame. I bet its quite hard to achieve a fame victory faster than they will.
Domination? Sucks when your enemy has a strong army, especially when thats how the clan operates. I would argue that it is not fun getting ran over by a dozen wolf warriors.
Its also not fun to lose a wisdom victory against boar because theyre faster.
It also is not fun when the enemy gets better tiles than you. Or easier enemies on them. Or if they get volcano as horse.

As I stated:
It is not balanced. You failed to even try to formulate something apart from "make it go away and give them something else"
Neutrals are not a deciding factor, if you want to befriend them you might wanna pick squirrel then.
Or if you want better watchtowers play horse. also with those sweet two warchiefs and double relic. Which isnt fun to play against, because why dont I get two warchiefs despite me playing something else?

Noone took anything away, they gave macro-players a clan that is different to goat and stag. And finally a clan that interacts a bit more with neutrals, because the others simply dont.
But now that they have something you dont like you want it taken away.
I can see where that obsession with stuff that should be rightful yours and gets taken away forcefully comes from.