What's the gameplay like after this point?

[Secret Foxfire]

After many years of wanting to play this game, I've finally started it, and I've been having a great time... mostly. At the start, it felt like I had a lot of freedom to just sort of do what I wished. I made decisions based on the character I was trying to play, did things in an odd order (without realizing, since I was going in spoiler-free), and generally had fun.

Then I got to the Clerk's Ward and suddenly it felt like I was playing a point and click adventure game complete with moon logic. I got completely stuck, couldn't find any way to progress despite certain things that seemed like they should work (found a book with a guy's name on it, found the guy walking around looking for his book, the game simply won't let me mention the book to him until I've done a completely unrelated task - that sort of thing).

I got so completely stuck that I finally gave up and consulted a walkthrough. Reading through the spoilers, I discovered that the things I needed to do to progress were things that I never would have thought of in a million years. Every task I needed to complete required an extremely specific set of steps dependent on my having caught tiny details in item descriptions or conversations, which were *not* recorded in my journal, remember them, and figure out how to put them together to progress. Without the walkthrough, I would have just been stuck forever. And none of this has anything to do with roleplaying. It might as well be King's Quest or Monkey Island.

So... what is the gameplay like from this point forward? Do I get to focus on actual choices, actual roleplaying, or is the remainder of the game fundamentally a point and click adventure game with stats and the occasional fight?

I do understand that this is only a video game, not an actual tabletop game with a live GM able to accommodate every idea. I know that options in a game like this are always limited because the developers can only plan for so much. But I am *not* interested in a game I would need a walkthrough to complete. That's not what I thought this game was going to be like. I was expecting... a roleplaying game. To play a role, make some decisions, fight some enemies.

The original game came out when I was a teenager and I have heard nothing but rave reviews for the story and setting all these years. And so far, those things have both been great. But if I'm likely to keep getting stuck, I might just watch a playthrough of the rest of the game recorded by someone else, and save myself the headache of trying to work out highly specific puzzle solutions when I should be, you know. Playing a D&D game. It's just frustrating to have put in all those hours only to hit a brick wall.

Thanks in advance for any advice/information!

[Zan]

First of all, you should describe more detailed your problems. Nevertheless, I'll try to do my best to give some answers.

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

Then I got to the Clerk's Ward and suddenly it felt like I was playing a point and click adventure game complete with moon logic. I got completely stuck, couldn't find any way to progress despite certain things that seemed like they should work (found a book with a guy's name on it, found the guy walking around looking for his book, the game simply won't let me mention the book to him until I've done a completely unrelated task - that sort of thing).

Are you talking about Finam's book? It's true, you can get it before you meet Finam.
There is a problem sometimes, that occurs with other items also! If you talk to somebody and have an item, that he wants/needs, you don't get the appropriate dialog option. If you end the conversation and start a new one, you normally get the appropriate option then.
Strange, yes - but so it is...

So, if you did an unrelated quest in between, you get the option, just because you started a new dialog - not because you did that quest.

And even worse, sometimes people stop talking, before you are through with all the dialog options. Just initiating another dialog immediately often helps.

Furthermore, I'm not sure, whether you really need that book and what you get from Finam. There is an alternate solution also.

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

... which were *not* recorded in my journal ...

Did you check the second section (diary? Sorry, don't know the English name) of the journal also? It sometimes even contains infos, that were not given in dialogs!.

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

So... what is the gameplay like from this point forward? Do I get to focus on actual choices, actual roleplaying, or is the remainder of the game fundamentally a point and click adventure game with stats and the occasional fight?

Clerk's Ward is in my opinion the most confusing area. After this area, things get far more straight forward.

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

The original game came out when I was a teenager and I have heard nothing but rave reviews for the story and setting all these years. And so far, those things have both been great.

From the last sentence, I would recommend: go on playing.

And if you face a problem, just ask. Of course, you could use a walkthrough. But from my own experience, I would not recommend this: until you find a solution for your problem, you might find solutions for problems, which you did not even recognize as problems so far... I do my first game always without a guide.

Greetings, Zan (played PST 3 times so far)

[Secret Foxfire]

Thank you very much, Zan, for your helpful reply! I did try talking to Finam multiple times, but he refused to speak to me until I had something "linguistic" to talk to him about. Which isn't the greatest game design, because they have him walking around muttering "where is that book?" and you can get the book as soon as you arrive in the Clerk's Ward. That was one of the things I had to look up in a walkthrough. It turns out you can't give him the book until you've opened the dodecahedron and seen what's inside, something I would not have done - I had the feeling I was supposed to save the dodecahedron until I needed it for something and wouldn't have thought to try "opening" it. I don't understand why they didn't just make his book unavailable until you'd done that.

And there are important details sometimes said in dialogue which are not recorded anywhere in the journal (I did look at all the tabs, not just the quest list). In particular, some of the things I was getting stuck on related to what the hag tells you in the vision in the sensorium crystal (sorry, I don't remember the names of things, hopefully you know what I mean), which is not logged in the journal - if you didn't write it down on paper in real life (and isn't that what the journal is supposed to be for? so we don't need to do that?), and you don't remember exactly what was said, you have to go back in there multiple times to replay the dialogue. I'm baffled as to why they have hints that are critical to progressing the main storyline not be written in that journal.

The other thing I got completely stuck on was the thing about water from the river styx. The guy is very specific about wanting water from the river styx. I thought there might be something in the curiosities shop, so I went there, but no, nothing. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out where it might be (at this point I was completely stuck and had no idea how to progress in any direction, so I thought maybe this was the key to moving the story forward), and so I finally consulted a walkthrough again and found that you have to get the special mug from the curiosities shop, then take crystals from the art display in the gallery, which I'd gone to ages before and didn't remember much of anything about. Never in a million years would I ever have thought "ah yes, water from the river styx, I'll simply buy an enchanted mug and use it to gather crystals from an art exhibit!" It was just such an obtuse puzzle, worthy of a classic point and click adventure game, that I started wondering whether I'd reached the end of my enjoyment of this game and should spend my very limited gaming time on something less frustrating.

I am currently at the point where I have the "key" to open the portal and I know the portal is in the foundry (which it took me ages to find, because it's at the edge of the map and I hadn't even seen it during my exploration of this area), and I got into the foundry using a receipt, but I've been stumbling around in there and I really don't know where I'm supposed to go. I don't understand what I'm meant to be doing in here. At one point my character said "I need to get into that guarded door" and I was like... I do? Why? Why does he know that? Did I miss something? I've been paying careful attention to the dialogue, deciding how I feel about each character, and enjoying the dialogue choices, so I'm not sure how I would have missed something that important.

So overall, the feeling I had before this part of the game was that I was in a world with a lot going on, and I had an overarching goal: find my journal, figure out who I am (and in part, decide who I am based on my choices of words and actions). Doing that involved exploring a lot of areas, meeting a lot of people, doing various side quests, and making roleplaying choices (the main thing I was enjoying). Every time I booted up the game, I had something to do, somewhere to explore, people to talk to. And then I hit this area and suddenly it's "you have to go to this specific place, talk to this specific person, solve this specific (and very obtuse) puzzle, and you have almost no choice about how you do any of these things." There were a few side quests, but they were extremely simple and over quickly. Everything is now confined to these two new areas (I can go back to the old ones of course, but there seems to be nothing left to do there - the world doesn't seem to be connected between the first and second main areas, like they're separate chapters or something), and everything feels like it's on very tight rails. I really don't enjoy point and click adventure games, so when it started feeling like one, I wasn't sure if I wanted to keep going.

Anyway, I still have some parts of the foundry to explore, and hopefully I'll figure out what the game wants me to do soon and can move on. And then I really hope the game opens back up again and goes back to being about exploring, making choices, a bit of combat, and not solving unfair puzzles that need a walkthrough.

Thanks again for the helpful answer. I just have so little time for gaming these days, I didn't want to spend it being frustrated. But it sounds like it will be worth pushing onwards. I also prefer not to use walkthroughs for games like this, which is why I was so frustrated to feel I had no choice - and I did in fact accidentally stumble on more information than I wanted. So I suppose I should ask here if I get stuck again. It's good to know that there are friendly players ready to help out if I get stuck.

[Zan]

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

Thank you very much, Zan, for your helpful reply! I did try talking to Finam multiple times, but he refused to speak to me until I had something "linguistic" to talk to him about. Which isn't the greatest game design, because they have him walking around muttering "where is that book?" and you can get the book as soon as you arrive in the Clerk's Ward. That was one of the things I had to look up in a walkthrough. It turns out you can't give him the book until you've opened the dodecahedron and seen what's inside, something I would not have done - I had the feeling I was supposed to save the dodecahedron until I needed it for something and wouldn't have thought to try "opening" it. I don't understand why they didn't just make his book unavailable until you'd done that.

I just checked this with an old savegame. Indeed you get nothing from Finam with only the book. On the other hand, from the description of the dodecahedron, I was quite curious and opened it immediately – and then got the quest for learning the language. And since I went from the brothel to the festhall directly and later to Finam, I didn't face any problems.
Btw.: there are still some items I always carry with me, I don't know what they are good for after 3 games now!

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

And there are important details sometimes said in dialogue which are not recorded anywhere in the journal (I did look at all the tabs, not just the quest list). In particular, some of the things I was getting stuck on related to what the hag tells you in the vision in the sensorium crystal (sorry, I don't remember the names of things, hopefully you know what I mean), which is not logged in the journal - if you didn't write it down on paper in real life (and isn't that what the journal is supposed to be for? so we don't need to do that?), and you don't remember exactly what was said, you have to go back in there multiple times to replay the dialogue. I'm baffled as to why they have hints that are critical to progressing the main storyline not be written in that journal.

Not sure about this one. In my journal I found an entry like "find the door, know the key, open the key". As far as I remember the dialog with the stone didn't say much more.
I wouldn't consider these as critical hints. Nothing else as "find the portal, find the key, use the key" – same procedure as every year...

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

The other thing I got completely stuck on was the thing about water from the river styx. The guy is very specific about wanting water from the river styx. I thought there might be something in the curiosities shop, so I went there, but no, nothing. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out where it might be (at this point I was completely stuck and had no idea how to progress in any direction, so I thought maybe this was the key to moving the story forward), and so I finally consulted a walkthrough again and found that you have to get the special mug from the curiosities shop, then take crystals from the art display in the gallery, which I'd gone to ages before and didn't remember much of anything about. Never in a million years would I ever have thought "ah yes, water from the river styx, I'll simply buy an enchanted mug and use it to gather crystals from an art exhibit!" It was just such an obtuse puzzle, worthy of a classic point and click adventure game, that I started wondering whether I'd reached the end of my enjoyment of this game and should spend my very limited gaming time on something less frustrating.

Here I agree. That one was hard. I lost my hand here, when trying to grab a styx bird... So that was a good reminder. Later I saw the mug at Vrischika, which "always keeps the beer cold" – but didn't remember the bird here... I don't remember, whether I solved this on my one or consulted a guide here also.

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

I am currently at the point where I have the "key" to open the portal and I know the portal is in the foundry (which it took me ages to find, because it's at the edge of the map and I hadn't even seen it during my exploration of this area), and I got into the foundry using a receipt, but I've been stumbling around in there and I really don't know where I'm supposed to go. I don't understand what I'm meant to be doing in here. At one point my character said "I need to get into that guarded door" and I was like... I do? Why? Why does he know that? Did I miss something? I've been paying careful attention to the dialogue, deciding how I feel about each character, and enjoying the dialogue choices, so I'm not sure how I would have missed something that important.

I think the problem is, that sometimes the program put a switch from 0 to 1 (or vice versa) depending on your actions – but doesn't put an entry into the journal about it. I had similar experiences also.

Escrito originalmente por Secret Foxfire:

Anyway, I still have some parts of the foundry to explore, and hopefully I'll figure out what the game wants me to do soon and can move on. And then I really hope the game opens back up again and goes back to being about exploring, making choices, a bit of combat, and not solving unfair puzzles that need a walkthrough.

Thanks again for the helpful answer. I just have so little time for gaming these days, I didn't want to spend it being frustrated. But it sounds like it will be worth pushing onwards. I also prefer not to use walkthroughs for games like this, which is why I was so frustrated to feel I had no choice - and I did in fact accidentally stumble on more information than I wanted. So I suppose I should ask here if I get stuck again. It's good to know that there are friendly players ready to help out if I get stuck.

I think, after exploration of the foundry things you have to do, you should see more clearly. If you have problems, feel free to ask. I'll try to answer without spoilers.
Hav a nice evening, Zan

[St. Haborym]

I'd recommend you do more of the side quest things unless you've already done them all

[Secret Foxfire]

I believe I've done every side quest that is possible for me to do. There are a couple that I seem to have softlocked myself on (for example, spying on the Silent King for Many-As-One doesn't seem to have a solution that I can complete at this point without breaking character very badly and fighting the entire dead nations).

I suppose the fact that I've done just about every side quest is part of my frustration, since I see other things I would want to do if this were an IRL tabletop game instead of a pre-programmed video game with inherently limited options, but at this point I can only progress the main storyline, which has been confusing and difficult in this section. Here's hoping the next section is a little less obtuse!