First time playing... thinking of rolling a thief?

[Mouse1]

I want to start off by saying I have NEVER played DnD, or any DnD based video game. I am familiar with some of the mechanics and stats, as many RPGs have borrowed from DnD. However, stuff like THAC0, Armor Class, and Saving Throw is a bit confusing to me, even after reading wikipedia.

I have done a fair bit of research into building TNO. Now, I know dialogue/story is the most important thing here. I haven't even gotten to Ragpicker's Square yet (spending too much time talking to every NPC and taking the world in), so I'm still a fighter. Pretty much everything I read says go mage, max out int/cha/wis. But my intelligence is 9, because I wasn't planning on going mage.

Thief seemed fun... I like stealth characters in RPG, on paper backstabbing seems very potent. My stats are 9 stre/9 int/17 wis/16 dex/15 con/10 cha at level 5 (or something like that, game isn't open at the moment, going off my memory). But still, every guide says GO MAGE and never look back. So am I missing out by playing thief my first time? Do I get a mage companion later on? I understand spells are very powerful in this game and I don't want to totally miss out on using them.

Should I just reroll? Is there a console command to alter attributes?

[StockyBaldy]

I would continue in your thief build, you can go back and play as a mage character when you finish your first playthrough if you wish.

I first played this game as a fighter, and I was still impressed by the game even if I didn't get the extra content you would get in a mage playthrough. Of course this is all up to you.

[Mouse1]

Originally posted by Bald Man:

I would continue in your thief build, you can go back and play as a mage character when you finish your first playthrough if you wish.

I first played this game as a fighter, and I was still impressed by the game even if I didn't get the extra content you would get in a mage playthrough. Of course this is all up to you.

I can always put a few more points into int for extra dialogue options. I guess my question is more about combat. Is mage super OP? Everyone says go mage because spells are powerful. So are they all just abusing a severely imbalanced class that got too much attention from the devs? Does mage make combat TOO easy?

Again, I know this game is all about the story/dialogue and TNO should always have high wisdom, which mine does. I guess I'm just wondering why everyone recommends newbies go mage, outside of stacking int for dialogue/story reasons.

[StockyBaldy]

Originally posted by Ivyτ:

I can always put a few more points into int for extra dialogue options. I guess my question is more about combat. Is mage super OP? Everyone says go mage because spells are powerful. So are they all just abusing a severely imbalanced class that got too much attention from the devs? Does mage make combat TOO easy?

Mages in my playtime I've found to be pretty good, but nothing that is super OP against the other classes, you can do just as well with them. Of course it varies person to person.

[Sisyphus]

Part of the value of Mage is your max stats like Charisma and Wisdom that allow you to see more of the game/story and engage in dialogue you can't otherwise. For that reason it's recommended to get the fullest experience.

[Moff]

Thieves don't really have much use in this game. There's very few locks to pick, and pretty much all of them can be bashed, traps are very rare and barely pose any threat. Backstab is nice and all, but there's almost no targets that are worth the trouble of sneaking up on them. And if you'll specialize as a fighter, you'll be dealing lots of damage very rapidly which is much better than backstabbing someone once in a fight. Pickpocketing might just be the most useful of thief's skills in this game, but again, it's not something worth specializing as a thief.
So i'd suggest sticking to a fighter instead. Spells aren't too powerful for the most part, but they are really cool, some high-level spells even play pre-rendered cutscenes. There are two mage companions in the game, so you don't need to make TNO a mage if you don't want to.

[StockyBaldy]

Originally posted by Moff:

Thieves don't really have much use in this game.

I feel slightly the same way now that I think about it, I haven't played as a thief that many times and since I regularly use Annah in my playthroughs there isn't any reason more to be one.

[Queegon]

Originally posted by Moff:

Thieves don't really have much use in this game.

Except, you know, they are arguably better fighters than fighters.
You can actually skip Annah and get Ignus instead as your primary mage. Plus you have a reason to not be lawful good as a thief. Great for replay value.

Thieves get the best weapons, better armor class, more thief-specific items, +2 luck on top of luck from WIS bonus (yep, wisdom gives luck bonuses) making you able to get +5 luck bonuses - that's just yuuge (+1 for double spec, +1 for tattoo, +3 for 25 WIS). Fighters get extra 3/2 attack instead but that's about it. I prefer thief here.

This is what luck does:

1. Modifies the duration of the Friend spell.
2. For randomized Charisma effects, luck will modify the bonus.
3. For randomized Damage effects, luck will modify the amount.
4. For randomized Heal effects, luck will modify the amount.
5. For randomized Hit Point bonuses, luck will modify the amount.
6. For randomized Luck effects, luck will modify the bonus (Whoa).
7. For randomized Heal Transfer effects, luck will modify the damage taken by the provider.
8. For randomized Embalming effects, luck will modify the hit point bonus.
9. For projectiles, Luck is added to the attack roll.
10. For detecting secret doors, Luck modifies the detection roll.
11. For stealth mode, Luck modifies the chance to succeed.
12. When swinging a weapon, Luck modifies the speed factor of the weapon.
13. When attacking (non-projectile), Luck is added to the attack roll.
14. When applying damage, Luck modifies the amount.
15. When removing traps, Luck modifies your skill.
16. When picking locks, Luck modifies your skill.
17. When bashing doors, Luck modifies your skill.
18. When removing traps, Luck modifies your skill.
19. If an item has been set up as a Random Destroy item, Luck modifies change to destroy.

[StockyBaldy]

Originally posted by Queegon:

Originally posted by Moff:

Thieves don't really have much use in this game.

Except, you know, they are arguably better fighters than fighters.
You can actually skip Annah and get Ignus instead as your primary mage. Plus you have a reason to not be lawful good as a thief. Great for replay value.

Thieves get the best weapons, better armor class, more thief-specific items, +2 luck on top of luck from WIS bonus (yep, wisdom gives luck bonuses) making you able to get +5 luck bonuses - that's just yuuge (+1 for double spec, +1 for tattoo, +3 for 25 WIS). Fighters get extra 3/2 attack instead but that's about it. I prefer thief here.

This is what luck does:

1. Modifies the duration of the Friend spell.
2. For randomized Charisma effects, luck will modify the bonus.
3. For randomized Damage effects, luck will modify the amount.
4. For randomized Heal effects, luck will modify the amount.
5. For randomized Hit Point bonuses, luck will modify the amount.
6. For randomized Luck effects, luck will modify the bonus (Whoa).
7. For randomized Heal Transfer effects, luck will modify the damage taken by the provider.
8. For randomized Embalming effects, luck will modify the hit point bonus.
9. For projectiles, Luck is added to the attack roll.
10. For detecting secret doors, Luck modifies the detection roll.
11. For stealth mode, Luck modifies the chance to succeed.
12. When swinging a weapon, Luck modifies the speed factor of the weapon.
13. When attacking (non-projectile), Luck is added to the attack roll.
14. When applying damage, Luck modifies the amount.
15. When removing traps, Luck modifies your skill.
16. When picking locks, Luck modifies your skill.
17. When bashing doors, Luck modifies your skill.
18. When removing traps, Luck modifies your skill.
19. If an item has been set up as a Random Destroy item, Luck modifies change to destroy.

Wow, just goes to show how damn big this game is, I didn't know all that.

[ed]

"So are they all just abusing a severely imbalanced class that got too much attention from the devs?"

As a long-time D&D nerd, this is how I know to believe you when you said you've never played anything D&D. :P

High level wizards being overpowered is an inherent fact of life in D&D itself, especially in the older editions like when this game was made. The Torment devs didn't pay "too much attention" - they just made a normal D&D wizard.

If anything, PS:T wizards are moderately less broken than the classics because of the somewhat changed/limited spell list, but they make up for it by being able to stack all the stats that unlock the most story.

Anyway, if you intend to play the game again in the future with higher mental stats you're fine to play the first round as an "underpowered for plot" character. It's an interesting idea to play through and then go back and experience how things change. But doing a lower mental stats run as your ONLY playthrough, ever, is what you shouldn't do.

For example, you're never going to be able to complete Dak'kon's storyline with your Int score, I believe the final requirement is Int 20 and Wis 21.

EDIT: Wow I messed up my formatting so bad.

[Pherdnut]

There are many great reasons to start the game mostly as a thief even one with high mental and mediocre thief stats:

* You don't get Anna for a while
* Setting off not-very dangerous traps by accident and bashing locks doesn't earn party XP
* I believe the thief luck boost helps improve your chances of getting special dialogs with generic hive NPCs that can get you money and loot (yes, talk to everyone). Mages do have a luck spell but somebody else can cast it and it doesn't last long.
* In ritzier parts of Sigil, pickpocketing can net you a lot of jewelry which is worth a ton of $.
* When you get Anna, you can specialize TNO as a pickpocketer and let her focus the dungeon skills and just swap to thief as needed when you need $ more than you need to be lawful.
* In the long term, double backstabs are no joke, especially if one of them is 19+ strength

Don't worry about the long term consequences of going thief or fighter with or without lousy stats for a while although wisdom is universally recommended for the faster leveling and the luck benefits.

The nature of D&D experience leveling is that each new tier tends to be geometric. That means you could reach the previous tier twice with the XP it takes to get to the next one. Even if you gave two classes equal time, they'd never be more than a level behind a class you devoted full time to if they had similar XP thresholds (thieves have the lowest although I'm not sure whether TNO has normal XP charts). Regardless, if you take fighter to 10, that's a drop in the bucket in terms of XP to a mage at 20 that will have a stronger to-hit and much better HP because of it.

High wisdom nets you enough bonus XP that you rapidly outpace party norm in whatever class you focus for a while. So it's not really a big deal if you don't have ideal thief stats once you've gained a few levels. You'll perform reasonably for the party norm and you can have strong atts for at least two classes long before end-game.

Even if you only want to play a mage all the time, it's well worth swapping to fighter occasionally before collecting a big quest XP award to pick up a few levels more of to-hit (thac0), hp and weapon-proficiency boosts, which carry over.

And don't sweat starting out smart but weak if you want to be smart. You regenerate and have a flying skull tank buddy that automatically negates every attempt to hit 75% of the time and has unlimited taunts. It's okay if at first, it takes a few more seconds to kill something. You certainly don't need decent saves against a berserking mage that's decided it's better to skip the spells and try, badly, to hit a flying skull with a knife.

The only hard thing about swapping a lot is managing the gear. This gets easier in Sigil at least, when you can start teleporting around.

[figmentPez]

Thieves are the best for farming Greater Glabrezu near the end of the game. Not that you need any of the rare items that they drop, but if you are interested in getting them, skulking in the shadows and backstabbing is the way to go.

[Devoras]

In my experience the spells aren't really overpowered, but a mage has much better synergy with important stats. I always max out Wisdom and Charisma no matter what, and I like intelligence so put that third. To effectively use a fighter, you need to have strength and constitution and you just don't have enough stat points to do that. However if you do go full fighter, you will be much more powerful than a mage, you regenerate health like crazy and can pound through enemies like they are nothing. Buuut to make such a fighter, you have to sacrifice one of the important role-playing stats(wisdom or charisma), and that's unacceptable so it's much easier to be a mage. The games where I went fighter, the combat was super easy, nothing could hope to defeat me, the health regeneration alone is insane.

I have never been a thief, it's not really a thief type game. Again, I don't see that you have enough stat points to make one effective in the same way a mage can be. Wisdom and Charisma really are that important that you must max them out as much as possible(especially wisdom), which does limit the use of classes other than mage somewhat. It's basically the difference between having 3 stats to upgrade with the mage, versus 4 for fighter or 5 for thief.

[kittyspam]

Wasn't there a joke in old D&D that for wizard characters you were nicknamed worthless when you started but then when you reached level 10 you just changed your name to God?