Few questions before starting. (WARNING! LONG! MANY QUESTIONS!)

[Neonetik]

Hey yall. So, I'm largely a newbie when it comes to games like this. They don't particularly appeal to me at a glance, and they have a lot of factors that I tend to dislike in videogames (potentially permanently missable stat points, random dice roll combat that relies more on luck than skill, ect ect ect), but I figured I am as well try a few highly rated ones out before tossing any appreciation I have left into the trash.

I bought Balders gate a while back actually, but got extremely scared off by the some 300 pages of pure text manual stuff, which I attempted to read multiple times, but kept getting confused halfway through and losing track of everything. Then I saw this for 4 bucks and decided "♥♥♥♥ it", and was glad to see a much smaller manual. Not that I dislike long manuals, but ♥♥♥♥ing Balders Gate was just so much to try and take in, even the character creation was confusing. I haven't actually started playing Planescape, I just checked out the character creation menu, but before I play, I'd like a few things cleared up.

Can I play this game as just one badass one man army, or do I need to build up a gang or something?

Is there anything I should avoid doing to render the game unwinnable?

What percentage of the game actually relies on skill, and what relies on dice rolls? Is combat actually tactical, or is it a case of "you're a lower level so your numbers a smaller than the enemies so no matter how good you play you will lose lol gg go grind some more"?

Is this one of those games where they say I can level my character how I want, but the game is actually just lying to me and only a few builds actually work and let you win? Could I win with any build, like being just a pure brute with a huge warhammer without abusing broken mechanics or something? Or do I have to get into pansy magic to stand a chance?

Are there specific break points/soft caps for skills where there's little reason to level up further than a certain point? I just launched the game and I saw there was stuff like Wisdom and Intelligence and Charisma in the character creation menu. I tend to prefer playing as a fighter and tank in most games, but is it possible to get a huge benefit out of these other skills just by invested a few points? Like, some games might require a speech skill of 8 or something for 90% of encounters, and 11 for the other 10%, and if your character starts off with 7, then it's probably worth it to add that single extra point. Know what I'm saying?

Are the starting stats as high as things can go? I pushed INT to the max it would let me (18) and it gave me a description of something like "YOUR INTELLIGENCE IS AT A SUPER GENIUS LEVEL YOU ARE BEYOND THAT OF ANY MORTAL IN THE UNIVERSE" or something insane like that. Does that mean that 18 Intelligence is far too much to bother having for the majority of the game, or is this another example of stupid ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wording where 18 is actually nothing compared to how high it actually goes, can I can level it to be far higher?

Speaking of Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma, these seem like they would bleed in with each other a lot in game. Is this the case, where you basically need to spec your whole character around all of these skills to actually make any of them work (EG, you speak to a character and need 11 INT to understand what they are saying, but also need 12 Charisma to make them do what you want them to do or even speak to them in the first place)? Or are these skills all very separate?

Are any of the stats completely useless? Like resistance in Dark Souls or whatever?

Is there anything I can permanently miss that will infuriate me 20 hours later? Can I avoid losing potential stat gains because of some stupid ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t like the sort that existed in The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion?

Will playing this help me understand the Balders Gate Manual?

Cheers for the answers.

[Neonetik]

I would also love answers to that even though I have no idea what a dead contract is because I hate doing stuff in games that I have no idea what it does.

[Rednak]

I personally think you get most out of the game with high wis, int ( and chr. ) I normally finish the game with 9 str and 9 dex, I only start increasing CON when my other stats are almost max.

You shouldn't skip things in the starting dungeon because you want to be a mage. Just don't delay toooooooo long(don't do all the sidequests) when you leave the dungeon. When you're a mage you can get lots of free experience by investigating and talking about the item in dakkons inventory.
You should switch to mage because you're aweful as a fighter with those low stats.
(This isn't necessary, but you can always switch back to fighter by talking to a certain party member. I actually only do this to gain some proficiency points in daggers (the only mage-weapon)

becoming a mage: find mebbeth: when you have left the starting dungeon, go to the next area via top left exit, top left exit AGAIN, that's ragpicker's square. Mebbeth's in a hut in the middle of this area.

Good spells imo:
lv1
magic missile
only much later: missile of patience
for dakkon: reign of anger
lv2
swarm curse (careful not to hurt non-hostile npcs), nice combo with elysium's tears
power of one
lv3
elysium's tears
lv4
blacksphere

(probably lots of other good ones, i normally focus on direct damage)

a good walkthrough can be found here:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/planescapetorment/walkthrough.php

[Rednak]

dead contract: as far as i know, it has no real repercussions since you can't really die. It might affect your alignment. You start out as true neutral. If you want to become lawful good, you can't do chaotic actions, probably just like this one (and attacking zombies, lying,...)

[figmentPez]

Originally posted by Zaxx:

Well, here's the thing: you made a good decision regarding your starting stats because a high intelligence, wisdom and charisma will help you a lot in figuring stuff out (and in this game you have a lot of stuff to figure out)... but be smart and be a mage as soon as you can be (find Old Mebbeth in Ragpicker's Square, she will train you). That's what your build will be really good for and the spells in this game are awesome.

If he wants to be a mage, becoming one as soon as he gets a chance is a fine choice, but it's hardly the only choice. Fighter and Thief are good choices to play the game as. Spells are fun (soooo much fun - Hearthstone), but they're not the only viable option.

Originally posted by NeonAbomination:

Why would I want to be a mage as soon as I can? Can I only level up a limited amount of times?

You only need to worry about level 7, and that's quite a ways off. At levels 7 and 11 you get a specialization bonus for the first of the three classes to hit that level, and you have to get the level 11 bonus in the same class you got the level 7 bonus for.

And I'll repeat myself, you can be any of the three classes and do just fine in the game, even with your current stats.

[Neonetik]

What's this about daggers being a mage weapon? I assumed mages were spells only. Are daggers like a fallback option for mages, so they at least have one melee weapon in case they run out of spells?

[figmentPez]

Originally posted by NeonAbomination:

What's this about daggers being a mage weapon? I assumed mages were spells only. Are daggers like a fallback option for mages, so they at least have one melee weapon in case they run out of spells?

Daggers have always been a mage/wizard/magic-user weapon in D&D, from 1st edition.

[Neonetik]

I've never played Dungeons and Dragons. That's neat. I always figured daggers were a thief weapon judging by all the games that make em thief/stealth based weapons.

[mikeydsc]

Daggers are sorta like a last line of defense for wizards should an attacker make it past their spells.

Thiefs used to use daggers to break into locks and doors by jimmying them with it.

[Rednak]

I normally don't use many spells against regular hive thugs. I often just use melee attacks, even with my TNO mage

[Včelí medvídek]

This game is true RPG - Like guard is at your way. With high strength and dexterity you cna grab and break it neck for example without alarm while with INT and WIS you will likely choose talkative route how pass it.

Overall it is indeed true that high WIS and INT char can get most of this game (as those stats determine access to msot dialoue options and memories), btu it dont realy mean you should give up on different approach and stats/build if you want and like it. And maybe you will learn something new too (you knwo you cna learn new tricks frrm npc thieves - or even get soem new thigns/quest/lore - if you watch and catch their moves and hand while they try robbing you if you are high dexterity thief... jsut example). Also note class and stats not necessary needs to br connected -you can play high wis+int warrior if you wish to (though foc in fighting perfomence strength and dexterity are more useful)

I would say a word toward skill vs. dice too. You can say THAC0 rolled on 1-20 can change anything but actually most important is knowledge of rules, save throws and so on. Maybe that superstrong enemy has low saving throws to some magic school and he is vurneable to simple spells like sleep - so right knowledge and chocie of your action is the decisive part. Ofc battler rolls itself are rng (one get this right on extreme difficulty in BG EE and ICWD - enemies have so high stats like thac0 they hit most of time no matter armor value and so high HP that even good THACO thanks perfect stats is not solution - one need to figure of strategy and good composition of skills and spells for success. YOu can call it "skill" if you want. But P:T is realy not focused on combat (while fights still can be very challenging) as indeed only 3 fights in whole game is mandatory (including zombie at the very beginning) - rest can be avoided or escaped.

PS: Side note to leveling and class. You should note you can actually level up all 3 classes (mage, thief, warrior) at same time and switch them as needed (sady no D&D multiclass here, btu cna retrain to other class any time). As by rules only first 10 levels give full HP for perfect character (even mage) with amximum possible HP one can considder train first 10 levels as warrior (1-10 HP epr elvel, thief 1-6, mage1-4.. without CON bonus.. so it can make huge difference at the end). Just note there are threshold levels - 7 and 12 (13?) where you get bonus stats accord your class..

So as example for true min-maxing mage it can be good level up to 6 as warr. switch to mage, level up to 7, go back warrior and level up to 11, and than level up to 12 and on as mage. Just note you will likely need kill lot of neutral/random enemies for this but is perfectly possible jsut go with Morte (or grab Dak´kon too if you wish) and level up up on neutral abisahis in city indifinetely. As with few ppl in aprty XP is shared between them and jump up qickly (I believe one abishai is 7k xp + iwsdom bonus of nameless one.. so if one go alone or with jsut Morte as companion its nto so hard reach even high levels "quickly")

PS2: Read the OP psot again so just few more points:

- any build works and have its own way and possibilities (as ilustrated in my post), just brute force seems be somehow more limited/boring,

- Rules are same as BG1 and BG2 (D&D 2nd edition) I spent my youngth on learning them through various game. Its perfectly plyyable without know it all, just cant expect to be able go soemthign evry challnging like solo run without proper knowledge.

- There is actualy "bad ending" one can get. WIthout much spoiling - as you likely figured you ar immortal, you be for example stuck in some place forever or find a way how finally die without solving anything - jsut pure death... Game usualy warns you somehow before such things can happen.

- Depend on stat. Eg some very advanced dialogue choices require certain high stats. If I am nto wrong, you should not need any stat over 19 (maybe 20) as requirrement for it in dialogue or quest. However for exampel every additional point ins tat cna make huge impact on your performance (even charisma is related to some saving throws so have it high is nto onyl for dialogues fbut for making you very resistant - to imunne - to some effects). But if I cna suggest dont try go Lperfect game" jsut create character as you wish, if you want be stupid brute warrior, gof or it. You will find some unique ways and options for such build too. I would also note there are NPC´s for fill any role in party and by lore nameless one is naturaly warrior.

-SOme stat gains are rleated to choices or quests so could be eventualy missable or skippable.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by NeonAbomination:

I would also love answers to that even though I have no idea what a dead contract is because I hate doing stuff in games that I have no idea what it does.

Those quests/decisions are usually more about your morality (though some can ofc turn into differnet quest results or fights). It is honest (lawful/chaotic) to promise somethign you knwo it enver happen because you are actualy immortal so no chance they can have your body after true death? It is good or evil? How it is promise same thing to more people at same time (likely you will nto fulfill such promise to any of them..). The game is ofc not screwed (almsot never) but those things simply shifts your alignment and relations in time. Just ry to "live it" as rpg, dont care what is biggest benefit or stat gains, just do what you would actualy do as character.. that is most rewarding at the end.

[Neonetik]

Whoh, that seems like a pretty big increase of HP fighting as a warrior as opposed to fighting as a mage. Do the other classes get bonuses similar to that, or is the warrior the only one who gets a bonus for just levelling up in the class?

Like I don't wanna go crazy into min/maxing but a maximum gain of 10HP to a maximum of 4 seems insane.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by NeonAbomination:

Whoh, that seems like a pretty big increase of HP fighting as a warrior as opposed to fighting as a mage. Do the other classes get bonuses similar to that, or is the warrior the only one who gets a bonus for just levelling up in the class?

Like I don't wanna go crazy into min/maxing but a maximum gain of 10HP to a maximum of 4 seems insane.

Ok I will elaborate a bit and hopefuly it will be clear.(giving some examples at the end as the whole process is bit complex and be confusing on first view).

Please also note you can realy play any way and still finish the game (some ppl may for example even consider play by rules all time without max HP per level - jsut random dice roll - which can dramaticaly change everything I write here - and still have fun and finish the game even though it may be more challenging. And in opposite if you do everything for min-max your char you can be dissapointed at the end and ask yourself if it was realy worthy of all effort)

Anyway.

HP per level (for only! first 10 levels as character level - it mean highest level from any class character has) HP gain during leveling is:

class HP roll + CON bonus (penalty).

Class HP roll is 1-10 for warrior, 1-6 for thief, 1-4 for mage (I name only those 3 as player character is limited only to this in P:T in classc D&D and games like BG is larger variety and you can see it on companions - eg. priest has 1-8)

CON bonus - you need check manual tables for this. And maximum CON bonus is also dependnat on class.

Mage and thief cna get maximum bonus +2 with CON 16, while warrior class can get larger bonuses (+4 at CON 18 and even higher at superhuman levels)

Also note to CON - since 19+ your character (any class) will slowly regenerate without healing needed (not such great deal but if you go for 25 CON you will see it:-)

So to somehow sum it up.

Let say you have you nameless one warrior at level 4 with CON 16 and 30HP (just example I dont recall how initial HP is rolled).

If you level up to level 5 as warrior your maximum possible HP gain is 12 (10 for class +2 for CON).

Let say you decide go mage route instead at same moment - first 4 levels as mage you will get only 1 HP per level until you reach your effective character level (highest level in any class) - if you level up to 5 as mage at that moment your maximum gain is 6 (4+2).

So let say since the intiial level 4 you continue up to 10 with warrior only and maximum HP per level. As result you will have in total 102 HP (initial 30 + 6x12 from leveling)

If you swithc to mage at 4 and continue as mage you will have only 70 HP (intial 30 +4 for first 4 mage levels + 6x6 from leveling)

Past character level 10 there is no class roll anymore instead its fixed amount (3 for fighter, 1 for mage) per level.

Also there are permanent stat bonuses at level 7 (and 12) that depend on your class (INT for mage, DEX for thief...) and even some items at traders and similar things are affected by this (eg. available tatooes) so it can be worthy level up to 7 in "your" class in any case.

So back to min-max mage at same situation - level up to 6 as warrior (30+2x12) level up to 7 as amge (6x1 + 6) switch back warrior and level up to 10 (1 HP for levle up to character level 7 + 3x12) - as result you will have 103 HP. Than you can switch back to mage and continue only as mage from that point which rewards you onyl 1 new extra HP per level. But overall your HP will be much greater than if you level up 5-10 as mage only (103 vs. 70). If you dont have any CON bonus (as likely mage invest points elsewhere) it will be even more improtant difference as numbers are lower (again counting 30 as initial but the total will be 91 vs 54)


TL;DR: you can ahve same character (eg warrior/mage level 10/10 with identical stats and very different HP pool if you prioritize warrior for leveling first 10 levels.. and both can continue as pure mages)

The catch is you need gather lot of extra XP for all those leveling in multiple classes, which realy dont come if you play game naturaly withou farming extra xp. Hence my suggestion go alone or small party only for start and farm respwnable enemies like abishais to pass this process. (note that in standard game you will likely finish it at some level 15-17.. so it cna give you Idea how things are done)

PS: also note multiclassing (Even though you cna actively use just 1 class at time) has other benefits than just extra HP - as for example saving throws are lowered for each class differently or getting more attcks per round as warrior, making overall better character at the end. But for details this is MUCH more compelx than HP is...:-)

[Neonetik]

Right, yeah, I totally understand. Shame there's no bonus to other stats for playing other character types. There's basically no reason NOT to play as a fighter for the first 6 levels from what I understand. Annoying, but good to know about. Not sure if I'll bother doing it, if I can beat the game anyway. I sometimes tend to do this sort of min/maxing, but only if I really care about the game and know I'm going to go into new game plus or something, which won't happen here. Cheers for the explanation though.

[figmentPez]

My last mage run I went immediately to the mage tutor, and switch classes as soon as I could. I did not find any trouble with a lack of hit points. If anything I found things went smoother because more XP went towards leveling as mage, getting more spells, and just generally making more progress towards what I wanted.

On the extreme opposite end is someone I ran across on these boards a while back who advocated getting to level 11 in Fighter, and then going back to be a Mage. He considered the fighter bonuses to be so valuable that he was willing to grind out those levels killing Abishai for hours, delaying even doing early quests until he switched to Mage to start playing the game for real. I can't fathom doing that amount of grinding when it's completely unnecessary. (Though it's something I might have done when I was younger.)