Tavern upgrade costs

[n00bdragon]

I'm currently working on upgrading my Tavern from level 2 to level 3 and wow, 24k Wood is a lot (I don't even want to think about 3 to 4; 27k iron and 54k wood is beyond unreasonable. That has to be twice as much wood as I've collected in the entire time I've played the game).

What's the best way to collect base level 1 materials? Is it there a particular floor of dungeon that drops them more than the others? Or are these higher tavern levels simply going to have to wait for another pet village structure to open up that makes acquiring base materials a LOT faster?

[luizpedronovak]

Having the same problem... To be fair, since I started upgrading/reforging all the adventurer sticks, higher woods started to run low, and tavern only made things worse.

For now, my best strategy is Forest 3 with 60 Lucky Talismans and high level Rogues (also Lucky Coin). It sis holding for now, but does not seem enough for the future.

[Fortunato]

I agree with the OP, seemed a bit nuts to me upon first seeing those requirements as well. And I've long moved beyond the upgrading/reforging of Magic Sticks phase already and am running Forest D3 dungeons (although only level 4 at the moment to balance Phoenix Feather consumption while fighting Mimics there).

[n00bdragon]

Lucky Talismans cost 5 Special Wood to make. Is 50% more drops in one room going to make back the 40 (effective) Wood that's going to cost me? It's only one room. Is there any kind of logic to save the talismans for certain rooms or are they all just going to get burned off in D1 before reaching the more lucrative D3?

[muljostpho]

I hit a wall at that level as well. Getting it up to 2 was trivial enough with what I already had on hand. (Only needed to make the ale, of course.) But the wood and iron is a project. (Doesn't help that I've been stupid lazy / inefficient and haven't actually had any dungeons running since the tavern was added though. Took everything out so I could freely mess with quests using anything they ask for.) I've got a bit under 5k of the needed 24k wood and a bit under 7k of the needed 12k iron.

I'm cautious (perhaps overly cautious) about what my teams are running when I do have dungeons going, so the most I've felt comfortable sending them out for is D2-5.

Hmm... The forest at that depth and difficulty displays for me 447.59% wood from the D2 boss and 89.52% wood from each of the 7 types of D2 earth enemy here. (Note: There's an 8th enemy in D2 which is water type, so there's no wood drop from that one.) In D2 forest each room can start with a maximum of 7 enemies per room, AND the D2 boss can summon extra enemies.

D1-10 shows 281.96% wood from the D1 boss and a mix of 28.2%, 42.29%, and 56.39% wood from each D1 enemy (which are all earth type, 1 has the lowest drop rate, 3 are the medium drop rate, and 3 are the high drop rate). In D1 forest each room can start with a maximum of 6 enemies per room.

I think it's safe to assume that for me D1-10 runs would fall short compared to D2-5 runs, even with the "wasted effort" first six rooms of every D2 run needing to go through D1 rooms first and even with the chance of bad RNG making some of the D2 enemies be that water type enemy. I'm not sure about the math to prove it (too lazy to try to dig into it) but the difference in the drop rates is already pretty significant even without looking at a higher difficulty in D2.

Oh! All the numbers I've written down are what's displayed by default, with no pets assigned to a team. But adding rogues increases the displayed rates. (Would it adjust with lucky talismans added to the party items as well?) The more rogues you think you can get away with sending out in the same team, the higher you can get those drop rates to be from that team. (But that's probably more relevant for players who can easily crush D3 content with overpowered pets.)

Anyway, if I peak ahead at D2-10 forest that's 565.88% wood from the boss and 113.18% wood from each earth enemy.

And if I peak ahead at D3-0 forest that's 915.49% and 1165.16% wood from the bosses and possibly 91.55%, 99.87%, 108.19%, or 116.52% wood from the enemies... But that's 5 of the 8 possible enemies that are earth type. You can also get some neutral, wind, or fire type enemies mixed in. In D3 forest each room can start with a maximum of 8 enemies per room, AND one of the D3 bosses can summon extra enemies.

I feel like D3 runs would be a bit rough in comparison with D2 runs. At least at this difficulty. Drop rates would look good but there's more opportunity to get stuck with non-earth enemies. Higher difficulties might sweeten the pot enough to make up for it though.

(I don't even want to think about 3 to 4; 27k iron and 54k wood is beyond unreasonable. That has to be twice as much wood as I've collected in the entire time I've played the game).

It's not useful since there's no conversion possible (yet? I think one of the buildings we're getting eventually is supposed to make conversions possible? you'd lose some value in the trade, of course) but to put this in a different context 27k iron ore and 54k wood is equivalent to 3375 iron bars and 6750 special wood. I've already dealt with several evos that have asked for numbers like that... Like the iron bars at least. Some of what's still left unevolved for me are asking for numbers like the magic wood.

I suppose for higher tavern levels than that, comparisons to the equivalent values in T3 or perhaps even T4 mats might become informative. Saving up the masses of T1 materials for the higher tavern levels might be comparable efforts to crafting some number of pieces of max T3 or max T4 gear.

EDIT:

Originally posted by n00bdragon:

Lucky Talismans cost 5 Special Wood to make. Is 50% more drops in one room going to make back the 40 (effective) Wood that's going to cost me? It's only one room. Is there any kind of logic to save the talismans for certain rooms or are they all just going to get burned off in D1 before reaching the more lucrative D3?

Oof. Yeah, the cost factor if you're crafting them instead of wasting pet stones on them. Wasn't thinking about that part when I thought to give them a quick mention. And the game does just burn off the tokens on every room. It's not smart enough to save them for the higher depths. (That might be an upcoming option at some point eventually, though? I think one of the buildings is planned to let us configure things like that?)

[n00bdragon]

but to put this in a different context 27k iron ore and 54k wood is equivalent to 3375 iron bars and 6750 special wood.

I hadn't thought about that. I just figured that I had made about 500 of the T3 mats each and then multiplied by 64, but I have spent a good bit of T2 mats on evolutions and equips I suppose. Still...

I guess I'm going to have to start gearing for D3. I can do D2-10 easily though and I'm wondering if I should just send like 2 rogues into D2-10 and let 12 hour runs bring me back ~500 T1 mats.

[luizpedronovak]

Some numbers I got from some Dungeon Logs. Depth 3-10, 1 Rogue (gray, +134%), and Lucky Coin (+85%) plus 60 Lucky Talismans. Averages per room are:

• Wood Depth 1: 12,5
  
• Wood Depth 2: 34,57
  
• Wood Depth 3: 59,15

• Special Wood Depth 1: 0,44
  
• Special Wood Depth 2: 2,53
  
• Special Wood Depth 3: 14,93

• Magic Wood Depth 1: 0
  
• Magic Wood Depth 2: 0,37
  
• Magic Wood Depth 3: 0,38

• Wood Average 60 Rooms: 44,63
  
• Special Average 60 Rooms: 9,92
  
• Magic Wood Average 60 Rooms: 0,26

Talking Special Wood only, one Talisman costs 5 SpWood. If doing depth 2, it simply is not worth, given it gives me on average less than that per room. Doing Depth 3 is better, it goes from a theoretical average 10 to the current avg 15, so exact 5. But all talismans used on depths 1 and 2 are wasted, so in the end it's a negative gain for that. So, in that specific scenario, it is not worth to run Talismans if you are going for SpWoods only.

If you account for woods being converted to SpWoods by alchemists, it goes to 5*8=40 "Woods" used per room... The total goes positive. I get 59.15+14.93*8 = 179 "Woods" per room, a gain of around 59 (over an theoretical ~ 119), so it pays for itself. But again wasting it the depths 1 and 2 will bring that amount down. In the end, the gain is small, but it's there.

So, conclusion: if you get a lot of woods already, it's good to go for the talismans. If you are not running depth 3 and do not have at least 2 pets improving the results in the team, the net gain will --probably-- be negative. Depends on your stats, as always, but this small analysis gives some insights on what is needed.

If you have extra pet stones to burn on talismans, however, everything change to the better.

[starwol]

Another trick that might be worth employing is using more rogues (scrapyard recommended team has a free slot while forest you could replace one assassin with an AllClasses pet set to rogue to still succeed at the Monster Prodigy event). However I don't know everything interacts (or even if these boosts themselves are additive, multiplicative or mixture) between base drop rate boosts, lucky talisman, rogue, lucky coin.

I know that might be a tad git gud/wizard go brr as you still need the pets and stats to be able to pull such things off (for starters, AllClasses pet are not the easiest to evolve and you might prefer to use that for quests).

The added problem for wood is you're also using that to make torches so you actually need more than twice as much as the iron ore (the number of torches is comparatively small for tavern but is a constant cost for scrapyard and forest...which you need for ore and wood) and that's before you get into sticks for adventurers. I think it's built around the notion that late game t1 materials simply just pile up as t2 become over-abundant so alchemists don't need to bother crafting those but the torches got forgotten. In that sense reversing the ore and wood costs could be helpful.

As numbers currently stand in checking the wiki totals I comfortably have enough to max out for the iron ore but I'm only 1/3 of the way for wood and I think with how it stands my tavern makes it to rank 6 (once I get enough mighty food and ale) and that's despite scrapyard being my worst dungeon team (it's only recently been able to do d10 d3).

I'm still in a dungeon but if I were to assume I get 4k wood a day then napkin maths says it will take me about a year to get the rest of the wood. One would say that is reasonable as I would take me longer to get QP for SSS rank but I don't know if features like this should be balanced around "just go to the infinity tower already" stats and I guess from a balance perspective there's an argument about how much class exp is the tavern supposed to be worth/how much is fair (considerations such as pets with no dungeon to go to can tag along and growth isn't a factor like it is for crafting and campagins, quest rank helps constrain this somewhat) and what are the other village buildings going to do. But as it currently stands, material costs are a constraint.

[luizpedronovak]

Originally posted by starwol:

However I don't know everything interacts (or even if these boosts themselves are additive, multiplicative or mixture) between base drop rate boosts, lucky talisman, rogue, lucky coin.

Talismans alter the drop rate for each enemy. If you remove them, look at the drop rates in the dungeon start screen, then add the talismans and look again, they increase by 50% ( multiply by 1.5). As the pets, they "Increase Loot by (...)", so my supposition is that it works like every other similar mechanic; additive between themselves then multiplicative over the rest. Coin is probably just another rogue boost, then it would be something like:

Base * Talisman * (Pet+Pet+Pet+...) * ChpBoost

[sfnhltb]

I guess it is hard to judge where access to the various tavern levels is expected to be gained, many of the level C quests often only require class level 10 or below pets (some require 20 though), and there is usually at least one pet of each class that can be unlocked simply, and getting to CL10 isn't too time consuming either, so if the costs of the tavern were to match the sort of income you would expect to have for those level of pets would be pretty low. But just because the CL requirements of the quests stay lower that I was expecting doesn't necessarily mean everyone is expected to level up the Tavern quickly to match (unless they sacrifice equipment progress).

Later on as the number of teams expand, and you get the ChP drop boosts and your Rogues start multiplying the loot drop rate by 3 or 4, and so on, and your crafting move onto the higher tiers, the materials start to really flood in - I have 1-1.5 million of each of the tier 1 materials currently (and at least 150k for t2 and 2-3k for t3), and while I have always tended to keep the campaigns running, I have been very lax on putting teams together or equipping/gemming them "correctly" (towards the end of last year I went from D2-10 and could barely sometimes do D3-0 on a couple of the teams, to doing D3-10 for 4 out of 5 teams just by better team choice and swapping their equipment which was still mostly set to fire pets would have all fire items, etc.), so those numbers could presumably be significantly larger if I had taken the time to look at how dungeons work rather than always putting it off.

I guess the other thing to consider is that there might be more additional pet village buildings that need upgrading in the near future so blowing all your stash on the Tavern just because it is the first one added may turn out to be a mistake, as there may be other buildings that are more beneficial to upgrade first (particularly if they help generate materials faster in one way or another).

[n00bdragon]

That's what confused me the most. I figured the class level requirements would match up kinda sorta with the item requirements, but stuck at Tavern level 2 where the class requirements are like... class level 2, and it's asking for tens of thousands of materials seems a bit off. If real end game players are sitting on a million Wood or whatever, maybe that makes sense for the higher tavern levels with class level requirements near 100 but there's definitely a mismatch in the early part.

[sfnhltb]

Well my CLs mostly run from 40 to 70, with a few of the older crafters slightly higher (one is 75), my oldest campaigners (the core of the growth chamber basically) are 68-69, most of my dungeon pets are 50-60, minus a couple of more recent evolutions, and then a handful of the newer ones in the 20s and 30s (mostly boosted to that sort of level from free XP), presumably some that have been more on top of the dungeon stuff will be somewhat higher than those levels, but not sure by how much.

I basically currently do all the questing from the RTI team, as that is one of each pet class and they can be swapped in and out at will without waiting for campaigns or dungeons to end, although they tend to be on the lower end of the CL range (27-48), because generally they used to be the junk (non-adventurer) campaigners that did the last and least useful campaign (depending on the time, so never really earned CL until they got assigned to RTI duty. Ok it temporarily slows RTI accumulation and boosts in a couple of categories, but you have to make a sacrifice somewhere to have a pool of pets to use on the quests.

[Ryu82]

The upgrade costs are made with the intention so even newer players can get the first levels, but for the later levels you need to be quite a bit further into the game and also focues a bit more on dungeon drops, some people hugely underestimate the benefit of rogues and lucky talismans. To max out the tavern, you will need to farm D3-10 with rogues for quite some time. With the right dungeon teams it is not that unreasonable.

https://prnt.sc/o04vBof3maB1 that here is what my forest team makes me every 12 hours atm and it is far from the best. Some people get more than twice as much, especially in longer runs with more SpaceDim levels. So a late game player can get more than 30k wood per day in D3 forest.

[StormWolf]

Wood is probably not going to be the limiting factor soon. I've been playing the game for quite a while, all pets unlocked, and only got to upgrade from level 4 to 5 when I got stuck on the food requirement. 48,000 mighty food. I've been feeding them all to my pets so didn't start with a stash when taverns came around. Now with 10 pets running food campaign all the time, and no longer feeding any of my pets mighty food, and I've only got to 10,000. So only advise I have is patience, and look at the game as a whole to see where you want to do. At your level there are probably better things to do than focusing on farming wood.

[n00bdragon]

Food is pretty easy to get. Run yourself up to a high PBaal and you'll be drowning in BP that you can buy tens of thousands of mighty food with.

[sfnhltb]

Depends on how far up you can get, it scales upwards very quickly (I spent a week or so doing OC in mostly 6 hour cycles to PBaal 130ish and was able to get around 500k Mighty Food from doing that), but conversely it is much slower to accumulate this way if you haven't progressed as much.