60 fps cap mistiming, variable frame rate?

[CrunchyBiscuit]

This topic is probably only meant for experienced gamers, perfectionists, nerds like me, geeks and experts on the alignment of frequencies. Feel free to contribute, but no uneducated responses please.

Bayonetta is capped at 60 fps, but a very low 60 fps at that (more like ~59.94 fps or something). On most monitors with standard timings (~59.94 Hz), this won't be a problem, but on my monitor and other monitors like mine with a true 60.0000 Hz default refresh rate, this leads to an accumulated missed frame every ~15-20 seconds or so (keep rotating the camera and you'll notice a minor 'skip' every couple of seconds, only properly visible with v-sync enabled on true 60.0000 Hz).

Is there any way to slightly adjust the frame rate cap of the game? Or use a variable frame rate? I tried playing it at 50 fps @ 50 Hz (PAL), but the game just skips frames a lot, since this is one of those rare games that uses an internal timer of ~59.94 Hz for everything. Transformers: Devastation, Metal Gear Rising and The Legend of Korra (all three from PlatinumGames) don't have a problem with 50 fps @ 50 Hz (PAL), but this game does. Funny thing is that Transformers: Devastation also has a default frame rate cap of 60 fps, but it's higher than Bayonetta's (about 59.9899 fps).

The only solution for me is to use CRU (Custom Resolution Utility) to change my refresh rate to 59.94 Hz and restart my system before I can play Bayonetta without missing a frame every ~15-20 seconds, then change it back to true 60.0000 Hz after I'm done playing the game, and restart my system again. Gotta do it every time. It works wonderfully, but it sure is a hassle.

Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[DustyShinigami]

I created a thread about this not too long ago, but got no replies. Looks like I'm not the only one experiencing this... It tends to be slightly worse for me when using G-Sync, but turning that off only reduces the problem but doesn't completely eliminate it. I've tried capping the frame rate to 60fps using Nvidia Profile Inspector and RivaTuner, but neither makes a difference. That CRU method is interesting. I would try that but I can't seem to manually add refresh rates when using a display port connection. :-/

[ar2games]

I also noticed frame skipping, l use AMD hardware and there is a tool called radeon pro which allows you to use triple buffer and change your Hz cap to anything you want, just deactivate the in-game V-Sync and force V-Sync in radeon pro. Unfortunately l haven't tried it with this game because l have the "bad steam_api" issue but in other games it always solved most of my FPS issues and you only need to set it once, you can set radeon pro to run at the startup and it isn't intrusive at all.

[SenMithrarin85]

The frameskipping is caused by the steamapi just like the stutters and crap performance (if your system is affected).

[CrunchyBiscuit]

Originally posted by DustyShinigami:

It tends to be slightly worse for me when using G-Sync, but turning that off only reduces the problem but doesn't completely eliminate it. I've tried capping the frame rate to 60fps using Nvidia Profile Inspector and RivaTuner, but neither makes a difference. That CRU method is interesting. I would try that but I can't seem to manually add refresh rates when using a display port connection. :-/

Thank you for the reply.

Odd, I would have thought G-Sync would solve this one for sure! Too bad it doesn't. Does the G-Sync logo display, is G-Sync working at all? I remember reading about other people having issues with G-Sync in Bayonetta too.

CRU is a godsend, especially for people without G-Sync. Try it out and experiment, but be careful though! might damage your monitor.

Originally posted by ar2games:

I also noticed frame skipping, l use AMD hardware and there is a tool called radeon pro which allows you to use triple buffer and change your Hz cap to anything you want, just deactivate the in-game V-Sync and force V-Sync in radeon pro. Unfortunately l haven't tried it with this game because l have the "bad steam_api" issue but in other games it always solved most of my FPS issues and you only need to set it once, you can set radeon pro to run at the startup and it isn't intrusive at all.

Thanks for your response.

Already using RadeonPro for many reasons, capping the frame rate is certainly one of 'em. I can cap the frame rate to a lower value like 50 or 30, but the problem is, I need a slightly higher value than the 60 fps Bayonetta uses, not lower. I can cap to 61, but then nothing happens because Bayonetta already caps the game to 60 by itself. Triple buffering isn't the issue.

Originally posted by SenMithrarin85:

The frameskipping is caused by the steamapi just like the stutters and crap performance (if your system is affected).

Thanks for your time.

You're describing a different problem, a far more severe one, of which I'm well aware.

The 'skip' or minor 'hiccup' I'm describing is way more subtle than the steamapi stuttering thing, which I have experienced. It also looks very different.

I'm talking about a missed frame every ~15-20 seconds or so, caused by the frame rate being capped at a value that is a bit too low for my refresh rate.

[DustyShinigami]

Originally posted by CrunchyBiscuit:

Originally posted by DustyShinigami:

It tends to be slightly worse for me when using G-Sync, but turning that off only reduces the problem but doesn't completely eliminate it. I've tried capping the frame rate to 60fps using Nvidia Profile Inspector and RivaTuner, but neither makes a difference. That CRU method is interesting. I would try that but I can't seem to manually add refresh rates when using a display port connection. :-/

Thank you for the reply.

Odd, I would have thought G-Sync would solve this one for sure! Too bad it doesn't. Does the G-Sync logo display, is G-Sync working at all? I remember reading about other people having issues with G-Sync in Bayonetta too.

CRU is a godsend, especially for people without G-Sync. Try it out and experiment, but be careful though! might damage your monitor.

Originally posted by ar2games:

I also noticed frame skipping, l use AMD hardware and there is a tool called radeon pro which allows you to use triple buffer and change your Hz cap to anything you want, just deactivate the in-game V-Sync and force V-Sync in radeon pro. Unfortunately l haven't tried it with this game because l have the "bad steam_api" issue but in other games it always solved most of my FPS issues and you only need to set it once, you can set radeon pro to run at the startup and it isn't intrusive at all.

Thanks for your response.

Already using RadeonPro for many reasons, capping the frame rate is certainly one of 'em. I can cap the frame rate to a lower value like 50 or 30, but the problem is, I need a slightly higher value than the 60 fps Bayonetta uses, not lower. I can cap to 61, but then nothing happens because Bayonetta already caps the game to 60 by itself. Triple buffering isn't the issue.

Originally posted by SenMithrarin85:

The frameskipping is caused by the steamapi just like the stutters and crap performance (if your system is affected).

Thanks for your time.

You're describing a different problem, a far more severe one, of which I'm well aware.

The 'skip' or minor 'hiccup' I'm describing is way more subtle than the steamapi stuttering thing, which I have experienced. It also looks very different.

I'm talking about a missed frame every ~15-20 seconds or so, caused by the frame rate being capped at a value that is a bit too low for my refresh rate.

Yeah, the game doesn't play well with G-Sync. No logos or anything, but it's safe to say it's on and working due to how other games are affected if I turn it off. Plus, like I say, the hitching is reduced quite a bit when it's off compared to when it's on.

Have tried CRU several times, but it just won't work whilst using display port. I don't get why though. I have refresh rates of 60, 85, 100, 120, and 144hz so would have thought you could set a value between those. I'll look into Radeon Pro, but I'm skeptical that'll work. Does it have an option to adjust the refresh rate or is it only an option to cap the frame rate? Would capping it to 59 or 59.94 not work?

Using the crack or playing in offline mode improves the frame rate and stops random FPS drops, but yeah - this is a different issue. It happens regardless.

[DustyShinigami]

Okay, changing the refresh rate in RadeonPro to 59.94 improves the problem for me even more. It still does it, but it's delayed even longer. However, selecting a refresh rate makes it display a Fraps-like frame counter in the game and there doesn't appear to be a way of turning it off. Also, capping the frame rate to 59fps seems to make the frame pacing even worse.

[CrunchyBiscuit]

Originally posted by DustyShinigami:

Yeah, the game doesn't play well with G-Sync. No logos or anything, but it's safe to say it's on and working due to how other games are affected if I turn it off. Plus, like I say, the hitching is reduced quite a bit when it's off compared to when it's on.

Have tried CRU several times, but it just won't work whilst using display port. I don't get why though. I have refresh rates of 60, 85, 100, 120, and 144hz so would have thought you could set a value between those. I'll look into Radeon Pro, but I'm skeptical that'll work. Does it have an option to adjust the refresh rate or is it only an option to cap the frame rate? Would capping it to 59 or 59.94 not work?

Hey again!

Ah! I'm afraid DisplayPort might be a problem for CRU. I think there are workarounds to get it working, but I'm using a regular DVI cable so never had to look into it. You might need the pixel clock patcher. It's a huge read, but interesting and probably helpful, just takes a lot of time figuring everything out:

https://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU?page=46

If you manage to get it working, you should be able to add four custom detailed resolutions in any Hz you want (like 59,94). But I already used all four slots for 130 various games. Can't add a fifth one for Bayonetta (technical limitations, not sure), which is why I have to replace an existing one and then restart my system before I play Bayonetta, and then put put it back afterwards and restart again. It works wel, but it's a lot of trouble for just one game.

Using RadeonPro, you can only select from the list of refresh rates that are registered and stored in Windows, not add new ones. The fps cap RadeonPro uses is the most precise 3rd party fps capper I've ever seen, better than rtss, dxtory or nvInspector, but it only uses integers (whole numbers, no decimals), so I can only cap it to 59 (way too low - a skip every second) or 60 (higher than the in-game 60 fps cap, so it doesn't do anything).

Originally posted by DustyShinigami:

Okay, changing the refresh rate in RadeonPro to 59.94 improves the problem for me even more. It still does it, but it's delayed even longer. However, selecting a refresh rate makes it display a Fraps-like frame counter in the game and there doesn't appear to be a way of turning it off. Also, capping the frame rate to 59fps seems to make the frame pacing even worse.

Yeah, every element in the game is timed at 59.94 fps (animations, input timings, everything). Trying to play at a different frame rate will just introduce an extra layer of stutter.

You can remove the yellow FPS counter by hiding it, or assigning it a hotkey to change its position on the fly. Click on the tiny gear wheels at the top (Settings) and then on the 'FPS counter'. tab. I made a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/6ydfPB6.jpg

[DustyShinigami]

Originally posted by CrunchyBiscuit:

Originally posted by DustyShinigami:

Yeah, the game doesn't play well with G-Sync. No logos or anything, but it's safe to say it's on and working due to how other games are affected if I turn it off. Plus, like I say, the hitching is reduced quite a bit when it's off compared to when it's on.

Have tried CRU several times, but it just won't work whilst using display port. I don't get why though. I have refresh rates of 60, 85, 100, 120, and 144hz so would have thought you could set a value between those. I'll look into Radeon Pro, but I'm skeptical that'll work. Does it have an option to adjust the refresh rate or is it only an option to cap the frame rate? Would capping it to 59 or 59.94 not work?

Hey again!

Ah! I'm afraid DisplayPort might be a problem for CRU. I think there are workarounds to get it working, but I'm using a regular DVI cable so never had to look into it. You might need the pixel clock patcher. It's a huge read, but interesting and probably helpful, just takes a lot of time figuring everything out:

https://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU?page=46

If you manage to get it working, you should be able to add four custom detailed resolutions in any Hz you want (like 59,94). But I already used all four slots for 130 various games. Can't add a fifth one for Bayonetta (technical limitations, not sure), which is why I have to replace an existing one and then restart my system before I play Bayonetta, and then put put it back afterwards and restart again. It works wel, but it's a lot of trouble for just one game.

Using RadeonPro, you can only select from the list of refresh rates that are registered and stored in Windows, not add new ones. The fps cap RadeonPro uses is the most precise 3rd party fps capper I've ever seen, better than rtss, dxtory or nvInspector, but it only uses integers (whole numbers, no decimals), so I can only cap it to 59 (way too low - a skip every second) or 60 (higher than the in-game 60 fps cap, so it doesn't do anything).

Originally posted by DustyShinigami:

Okay, changing the refresh rate in RadeonPro to 59.94 improves the problem for me even more. It still does it, but it's delayed even longer. However, selecting a refresh rate makes it display a Fraps-like frame counter in the game and there doesn't appear to be a way of turning it off. Also, capping the frame rate to 59fps seems to make the frame pacing even worse.

Yeah, every element in the game is timed at 59.94 fps (animations, input timings, everything). Trying to play at a different frame rate will just introduce an extra layer of stutter.

You can remove the yellow FPS counter by hiding it, or assigning it a hotkey to change its position on the fly. Click on the tiny gear wheels at the top (Settings) and then on the 'FPS counter'. tab. I made a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/6ydfPB6.jpg

Well whaddya know... Just tried it again and this time it worked! Now have a refresh rate of 59.94Hz. :D Clearly must have done something wrong last time. Whether it's because I added it to the wrong list or didn't restart the graphics drivers, I don't know. And so far Bayonetta seems to be 100% smooth when panning the camera. :) Will need to test it further though.

Thanks for the tip on how to remove that frame counter. Will look into that.

[DustyShinigami]

After more testing it looks like it doesn't fix the issue after all. :( I don't get it as I've set a custom refresh rate of 59/59.94Hz.

[CrunchyBiscuit]

Blasted, I haven't really played the game yet, but I think I encountered the same thing you're seeing.

I took the time to play some more yesterday and the stutters return after a while, but the cause is different.

I first had to play the cracked version to get rid of the massive stutters.

Then I had to make a custom resolution @ 59,94 Hz to get rid of the frame skips at 60.0000 Hz (G-Sync should have solved this one for you).

And now there's a new stutter problem. After 15 minutes or so (never really played that long before), the game starts to frameskip a bit and it gets progressively worse over time.

This one isn't directly related to frame rate, but it looks about the same. I'm pretty sure this is the one you're seeing, since no Hz adjustment can fix these, which is why G-Sync doesn't help (probably engine related).

Something gets messed up. Alt-tabbing fixes it, but not always. Changing and re-applying graphical settings fixes it, but not always. Restarting the game always fixes it, but the problem inevitably returns.

It's almost like the frame rate cap of the game doesn't match the internal timer of the game, eventually running out of sync or something.

I tested the cracked version of the game on two very different systems, both behave the same.

I'm done with this game. Deleted.

Too bad. Maybe I'll try again after the patch.

[Zapeer]

I have found boderless @ 60hz to be the best way to play so far. Few stutters here and there and input lag. But thats best I could manage.

[DustyShinigami]

I've tried applying the custom 59.94Hz refresh rate via RadeonPro and it seemed to completely disappear. But, like you say CrunchyBiscuit, the issue seems to come back and then gets worse the more you play. I suspect applying that refresh rate through RadeonPro will turn out the same way after a bit. :-\

[nickwithtea]

Any specific reason the game doesn't run at 120fps/beyond - similar to DMC? Are animations tied to framerate or does the game break at a certain fps?

[Kuda White]

Yes, it tied fps to animations/physics
Above 60fps everything is hell break loose. You dun want to see bayo legs get more longer, are you ?

[Padhead]

Originally posted by CrunchyBiscuit:

Blasted, I haven't really played the game yet, but I think I encountered the same thing you're seeing.

I took the time to play some more yesterday and the stutters return after a while, but the cause is different.

I first had to play the cracked version to get rid of the massive stutters.

Then I had to make a custom resolution @ 59,94 Hz to get rid of the frame skips at 60.0000 Hz (G-Sync should have solved this one for you).

And now there's a new stutter problem. After 15 minutes or so (never really played that long before), the game starts to frameskip a bit and it gets progressively worse over time.

This one isn't directly related to frame rate, but it looks about the same. I'm pretty sure this is the one you're seeing, since no Hz adjustment can fix these, which is why G-Sync doesn't help (probably engine related).

Something gets messed up. Alt-tabbing fixes it, but not always. Changing and re-applying graphical settings fixes it, but not always. Restarting the game always fixes it, but the problem inevitably returns.

It's almost like the frame rate cap of the game doesn't match the internal timer of the game, eventually running out of sync or something.

I tested the cracked version of the game on two very different systems, both behave the same.

I'm done with this game. Deleted.

Too bad. Maybe I'll try again after the patch.

I experienced the same problem. You exaclly describe what it occurs after 10~15 minutes : the game starts to frameskip. But when I see the positive rating on the steam page, it doesn't appear to be a problem for most users They're blind or don't bother...