Is ONI Getting too complicated?

[Teh Nizzim]

I find that I often feel overwhelmed every time I come back to this game, and I started way back in the early versions and was overwhelmed then as well.

It could be just me, but does anyone else find this hits a learning curve wall? I get to a certain point and just have no idea how to sustain any of my resources, how to make more water. I know there are tutorials, but they dont seem dynamic enough for specific circumstances, mixed with how confusing the priority and preferences system can be sometimes, its hard to get any of the dupes to do anything specific or exclusive. Again it might just be me, but I dont see anything like that explained in the games tutorials?

This ISNT a diss on this game at all, i absolutely love the game and respect its breadth, but I'm just wondering if I'm in the majority on the learning curve being a bit confusing or not.

Discuss.

[AlexMBrennan]

Its almost like - I don't know - the game requires you to make an active effort in gathering knowlegde and test out new interesting designs and ideas on the sandbox mode. Oh wait no, there's 100's of guides out there discribing in detail with images and diagrams right here on Steam, let alone a whole community on YouTube with in-detail guides on how to build anything worthwhile. Wait-wait-wait, let me guess? You don't want to make an active effort but would rather have everything handed to you?

Do you remember when games had manuals?

I remember spending ages reading the Flight Simulator 2000 handbook because there was a lot of stuff you had to know to fly planes. I also remember doing the flying lessons which existed because Microsoft was smart enough to recognise that people other than trained pilots would buy this game.

You know what would have been unprofessional? Telling your customers to watch some random person's Youtube guides because you are too lazy to do your job and write a manual.

The fact that third party content creators have to do Klei's job for Klei because Klei is too damn lazy is not a good defence of Klei.

[Power and Wealth]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

You know what would have been unprofessional? Telling your customers to watch some random person's Youtube guides because you are too lazy to do your job and write a manual.

The fact that third party content creators have to do Klei's job for Klei because Klei is too damn lazy is not a good defence of Klei.

True now go out and sprout your idea amongst the 1000's if not 10.000 other games out there without an indepth manual showing you how to play the game, I am sure you will be most succesful in screaming into the void where absolutely nobody cares :)

[kampfer91]

Originally posted by Archaos the Mad Bro:

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

You know what would have been unprofessional? Telling your customers to watch some random person's Youtube guides because you are too lazy to do your job and write a manual.

The fact that third party content creators have to do Klei's job for Klei because Klei is too damn lazy is not a good defence of Klei.

True now go out and sprout your idea amongst the 1000's if not 10.000 other games out there without an indepth manual showing you how to play the game, I am sure you will be most succesful in screaming into the void where absolutely nobody cares :)

You must be that arrogant to assume many games lacking some manual / info on how stuff work in game .

For example , Dawn of Man , the concept is the same , you start with a few people , expand your living zone , unlock new stuffs via research on the way and achieve true automation without you have to directly intervene , but i have easier time on that game without having to look at youtube video on how to solve this and that because the game provide enough information and also a great graph in order to effectively monitor your people well-being .

The graph in ONI however , is very useless and barebone . Just look at the power chart , only 2 stats on them which doesn't paint the full picture of what is going on in my power circuit .

[Aleddra]

I'm pretty sure there actually are tooltips for errands, properties and the main window. If i'm not completely mistaken the buildings have a link to the database in the tooltip. The database has a search field. If typing is too hard, you might want to give up computers right away.

Now as for learning the game, play it. Even if you scrap the base, you can mass delete everything, recycle the materials and start over. Or don't play the game and stop complaining.

I am surprised the one defending the game is the troll. What kind of point would everyone else be defending?

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by Archaos the Mad Bro:

That you are indeed allowed to, as I am allowed to call you out on your bs, I too can make up a bunch of lies and imaginative stories to validate my statement.

Okay, back up your statements then, quote the lies I made...

If ONI is too tiresome for you to play, yet you complain about it feeling too much like work, then why play it if the complexity is too much? Go play Raid:Shadow Legend or Farmville, its a lot more simple.

You keep making suggestions on what I should or shouldn't do with my time, as if I'm looking for your approval. I'll save you some time, I'm not. I don't care what you think.

[MrGrudge]

Originally posted by brown29knight:

Originally posted by Archaos the Mad Bro:

Yes its a challenge, its supposed to be a challenge but it is not insurmountable at all.
This game expects you to put in some effort, to seek out information yourself, experiment with sandbox mode, read up on various guides or simply throw mud at the wall and see what sticks.

I SO agree with this. I set up my first sour gas boiler a week ago. no guides, no videos, no tutorials, just go for it and see what works. It is horribly inefficient, takes up almost my entire oil biome, had to be rebuilt a couple times, and uses far more materials and power than it could at optimum, but it works, is MY design, and i'm DAMN proud of it.

I tried building a Petroleum "Boiler" (really it's a thermal cracker, nothing is getting boiled) based on a guide and realized fast that I could improve the entire concept. Teaches me to keep manual saves before starting a big project as I had to still tear stuff down after going back 10 cycles just to build my own version that utilizes a steam turbine to cool down the petroleum so as not to overheat the pump and make the contraption energy positive.

[Timotheeee1]

the fact that the game is complicated is good. if it was simple, you could just finish it in 10 hours and then it would get boring.

[Black_Rat]

If it is, that is a good thing. That means there is more to do and learn in the game.

[SakuraKoi]

Well, mind you, there can always be something TOO something, complicated included.

Too complicated would it be if it was needlessly complicated, requiring external tools beyond calculators/pen&paper or professional knowledge.

This does not apply to ONI though, mostly. It is basically up to personal preference that views certain procedures as (too) grindy but ONI should upset very few. Even if those are from another camp that do not want ONI to be 'too simple'.

Best example for complications in ONI were as I recall Steel which was actually speed up reasonably and quickly. Rather than just eggshells, fossils were introduced ~3 months later and Pokeshells ~10 months after that.

In Spaced Out, Plant Mutation is viewed as 'not worthwhile for many' due to various factors, including making the plants drop mutated seeds with radiation and fertilizing them with radiation. They just introduced a Rad lamp though, their impact has yet to be measured.

These were or may still be needlessly complicated to a certain degree but not one to a gamebreaking degree. Only Steel is vital and was too grindy in terms of time while mutated plants are optional. Usually time is less severe as complication than making some actual construct and plan.

Rockets meanwhile might benefit from external tools for sure but ultimately that boils down to min-maxing instead of actually making them work and worthwhile.

It's way worse to actually having to ask wikis where to find what like in case of (modded) Terraria. An NPC as sole guide for recipes and only if you have the material sure does not suffice for the epic proportions that Terraria as game can reach, if you have a supercomputer. Just base Terraria has 4000 items and mods may very well add thousands each.

Some mods are foolish enough to use rare drops from rare enemies as material or rare Paintings from randomly generated structures or materials from a rare NPC with a wide selection of items but only few generated each time they appear... never mind bosses being limited to summon items,

I assure you, anyone who makes a proper questing mod for the major mods is going to make a lot of $$$. They might as well mod/reduce the VFX while at it. Nothing is worse than getting an accessory from ~500 items that lacks the option to turn of its constant clusterbombing. #MakeTerrariaPlayableAgain.

Anyway, some players will always get frustrated. Of course it is best to keep the number down but ultimately designers need the right feel, to differentiate between an unfair challenge, hand-holding, anything in between and any even further extreme. Klei sure has good designers.

[T9]

Originally posted by Archaos the Mad Bro:

I suppose the game has to hold hands, tell you everything is going to be alright and tell you how its supposed to be played, rather than putting that huge human brain to use and doing a bit of your own research.

People usually just want to know the rules of the game. ONI often lies or is silent about the rules. Reality is hardly connected to this sim.
You can tinker around and find all the "funny accidents", so called mechanics, of the game by yourself or you start reading and writing in forums and look videos to gather informations with others and make the game work.

If I want hand holding I would play RDR 2 or GTA 5.

[frank2351]

yeah, it's just you. We over here like complex and deep games. If you want some shallow game just move on. There is plenty shallow garbage to choose from on the market. Maybe ditch PC and buy a Nintendo system ...

[Kammerflimmern]

I remember times my Dupes died because of Slimelung and the need of Medication and an Medic-Dupe to prevent it.
Yes its getting easier with each Update but you can choose to make it harder for you also if you want.

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by Kammerflimmern:

I remember times my Dupes died because of Slimelung and the need of Medication and an Medic-Dupe to prevent it.
Yes its getting easier with each Update but you can choose to make it harder for you also if you want.

Easier? It's not even playable anymore. The whole game becomes a stuttering crawl by the time you hit multiple planets...

[Aleddra]

Computer games are not for everyone. There's still the wood blocks you could try? That's not very complex.

[Aleddra]

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

Well, mind you, there can always be something TOO something, complicated included.

An opening statement which is non-committed to and to which most people would agree.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

Too complicated would it be if it was needlessly complicated, requiring external tools beyond calculators/pen&paper or professional knowledge.

Which are completely optional. Some people like to research the optimal game strategies, play the best possible game, and quit because they're bored... ONI is all about learning the ropes, getting better, and play your own game.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

This does not apply to ONI though, mostly. It is basically up to personal preference that views certain procedures as (too) grindy but ONI should upset very few. Even if those are from another camp that do not want ONI to be 'too simple'.

Fixing something as broad as "ONI is simple" might as well imply trashing the game and look for something else. That might upset very few.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

Best example for complications in ONI were as I recall Steel which was actually speed up reasonably and quickly. Rather than just eggshells, fossils were introduced ~3 months later and Pokeshells ~10 months after that.

So many suggestions. I bet Klei would benefit from hearing about them. From what i can tell, ONI is hard?

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

In Spaced Out, Plant Mutation is viewed as 'not worthwhile for many' due to various factors, including making the plants drop mutated seeds with radiation and fertilizing them with radiation. They just introduced a Rad lamp though, their impact has yet to be measured.

Some people like a challenge. What may be "not worthwhile" to you, might be worth exploring for someone with a larger understanding of the game.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

These were or may still be needlessly complicated to a certain degree but not one to a gamebreaking degree. Only Steel is vital and was too grindy in terms of time while mutated plants are optional. Usually time is less severe as complication than making some actual construct and plan.

So, steel is vital and grindy. Would you like to offer a solution to making steel in ONI?

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

Rockets meanwhile might benefit from external tools for sure but ultimately that boils down to min-maxing instead of actually making them work and worthwhile.

Rockets might benefit from an optional 3rd party software which is completely unsafe and could infect your machine with malicious code.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

It's way worse to actually having to ask wikis where to find what like in case of (modded) Terraria. An NPC as sole guide for recipes and only if you have the material sure does not suffice for the epic proportions that Terraria as game can reach, if you have a supercomputer. Just base Terraria has 4000 items and mods may very well add thousands each.

So mods... Those are not supported by Klei. Use them or don't. It doesn't have anything to do with the real game.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

Some mods are foolish enough to use rare drops from rare enemies as material or rare Paintings from randomly generated structures or materials from a rare NPC with a wide selection of items but only few generated each time they appear... never mind bosses being limited to summon items,

I think you're making stuff up to plead ONI is too complicated. Please link this mod.

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

I assure you, anyone who makes a proper questing mod for the major mods is going to make a lot of $$$. They might as well mod/reduce the VFX while at it. Nothing is worse than getting an accessory from ~500 items that lacks the option to turn of its constant clusterbombing. #MakeTerrariaPlayableAgain.

Am i getting this right? You would want a mod to turn ONI into a shoter?

Originally posted by SakuraKoi:

Anyway, some players will always get frustrated. Of course it is best to keep the number down but ultimately designers need the right feel, to differentiate between an unfair challenge, hand-holding, anything in between and any even further extreme. Klei sure has good designers.

Frustrated players are very vocal... and very often they have nothing to say.