Mid-Late game interest loss

[DustBust]

I've played this game many times over but I continue to run into the same boredom/lack of fun I believe around 100 cycles, the game feels like it slows down to a crawl, even on x3 speed, feels like even attempting at micromanaging/automating everything only helps out so much.

- I've reduced food intake but this becomes annoying
- I'm usually happy with 8-10 dupes but their productivity just drops.
- I don't really care to setup mini bases but feel like that is almost necessary
- I'm about to try the "No sleep" mod to see if that helps the situation.
- Even dupes dedicated to certain jobs eventually has drawbacks.
- I setup a lot of automation but doesn't help the overall slowing down of the game.

Its like the game migrates from a fun city builder/infrastructure builder to micro-manager and the travel times just slowly but surely kill my fun. I'm about to try turning off sleep to see if that helps a bit more in keeping the game moving and doing away with food even though I do like that mechanic.

[Cola]

Are you optimally using the conveyor system?
That in itself can save a lot of dupes running around with resources.

Dedicating a few dupes to exclusively building and digging helps to keep the progress going; but at some point the fresh resources will be far away from build sites, and that takes a lot of your dupe-time.

[Mossflower]

Actually, I think I recognize what the problem is here from my own experience. The issue is that there are many more duplicants and many more tasks. So they begin to thrash between the many planned tasks, doing one thing, crossing the map to do another, and so on. Make sure you have the priority system set correctly. There's a setting in there called "Enable Proximity" which is helpful for larger bases. Probably turn it on by cycle 100. Also, make sure that you have multiple people for each type of task if you've upped any priorities. Otherwise, other people will mostly ignore those tasks if they have anything else to do.

[DustBust]

Originally posted by Mossflower:

Actually, I think I recognize what the problem is here from my own experience. The issue is that there are many more duplicants and many more tasks. So they begin to thrash between the many planned tasks, doing one thing, crossing the map to do another, and so on. Make sure you have the priority system set correctly. There's a setting in there called "Enable Proximity" which is helpful for larger bases. Probably turn it on by cycle 100. Also, make sure that you have multiple people for each type of task if you've upped any priorities. Otherwise, other people will mostly ignore those tasks if they have anything else to do.

I don't think I've seen that "Enable Proximity" setting but will definitely look into it.... I have not used the conveyor system either, I know I've looked at it a few times but never really cared to implement it.

In all honesty, I think some QoL or some DEV love/ingenuity should be put into this, I don't have any ideas just because its really the bases how of the game was designed, maybe smarter AI... not sure.

[Shame]

I have noticed this myself a bit. It still becomes a micro-management hell due to the need to move liquids, gases and solids between places (which is essential for making stuff like liquid locks), rocket travel, overflow/lack of resources in given situations that require reconstruction and possibly prioritisation.

For making things just happen quicker, if you can't bear the time it takes to do things later on in the game, I suggest installing a mod that makes the game run like x10 faster at top speed, or I think there might have been a debug key combination to let you enable such high speeds without any mods as well. The DLC has multiple asteroids which are smaller with a lot less travel time and I even end up with a ton of idle duplicants. Still tons of micro-management.

[Dextrome]

Yea I pretty much always play at x10 speed now

They say x10 speed can be a bit buggy with the physics and stuff, but tbh I haven't seen anything really weird happen

[kingjames488]

guess you'll have to buy the DLC...

[Jingseng]

I agree. I think the problem is, we enjoy the building and growing of the base.

By cycle 100 or so, the base has, at least for the time being, basically stopped growing. We've reached (again, at least for the time being) a stable plateau. The gameplay stops being challenging (and thus rewarding) and begins becoming tedious (dealing with problems and maintenance).

Additionally, this is compounded by a few other factors:

1) by this point, this base is large enough that the maintenance type tasks take up the majority of your available work capacity. The colony spends little time expanding or changing and most of its time just being. This is compounded by your dupes general inefficiency (task selection is not weighted by proximity or relatedness... thus they harvest something, and instead of carrying it to where it is stored or needed, they leave it right where it is for someone else to pick up and move.... while they themselves move off anyway...they dig one square, and then travel across the map to do something else, then travel back to dig another square... personally I've never seen the prox setting, but I can imagine that, even with priority settings for tasks your dupes are generally better at (and, honestly, why should I even need to set that?) I can see that also causing a lot of tasks to fall through). It is additionally compounded by your dupes general tendency to drop things for pretty much no reason (leaving food partly finished at the table, suddenly dropping food to go to the bathroom, dropping what they are carrying to celebrate research, and so on).

2) up to this point, it would be dangerous to expand your population much beyond 8-10 dupes. Accordingly, your base is laid out and designed for such a size. However, due to the size needed for all buildings (do automation sensors and the like really need to take up an unoccupied 1x1 or more? Likewise some stations are simply huge and prevent other necessary auxiliary structures from being built) as you progress in research, your available space disappears rapidly and, even with good planning, there will be a fair amount of nonsense placement and nightmare complexity (like piping).

3) because of point #1 and 2, you pretty much need to increase your population to 16-20. Basically, double. But because of #2, it is difficult if not impossible to find efficient placement options for new living, hygiene, and eating locations. And adding new living, hygiene, eating, storage, and travel pathing only compounds the issues brought up in #2 - namely the inefficiency and nightmare/nonsense knots.

4) additionally, the Phosphorite/chlorine/drecko caves make it difficult to expand... because these areas are enduringly and eternally producing 45c heat... so much so that it will bleed through abyssalite layers. So trying to manage your heat, post-inefficient expansion, is a losing battle (ironically, in the other direction from entropy). Even breaching an ice biome wont cool these areas... it will just melt the ice biome instead.

5) #3 and 4 make increasing your power supply difficult, particularly given wiring limitations and the fact that wires are always considered to the same circuit if connected - without regard to whether they are on the same or different sides of a generator.

6) while tearing down and rebuilding and relocating structures is simple in the first 30-45 cycles, it quickly becomes an impossible task - your dupes wont rebuild critical structures fast enough. You would, instead, need to completely rebuild a redesigned base elsewhere, and then either demolish or redesign your original base and move back. Which, as pointed out in #1, more work than your dupes are capable of performing in any kind of reasonable time frame. While this is how large public works are constructed in the real world, it is also slow and not-fun in the real world.

There's more, but really... all these "challenges" aren't fun... they are artificially difficult for the sake of difficulty and tedious to deal with. The inability to designate circuits, to designate storage or drop off areas (I can't just say "throw trash here", I have to build and filter a storage bin, and set sweeping tasks), general tasks selection and performance inefficiency, infinite heat build up zones... it all scales up too and becomes not-fun.

Really, automation shouldn't be the answer to your dupes inefficiency or the base size... that just means your dupes dont do things that make sense, or arent doing things that they ought to be doing. Logic gates are one thing, but if I'm using conveyors or buildings to deliver, store, and sweep... it feels like those are things that the dupes should have been doing naturally anyway. In other words, couldn't I just automate the dupes?

As for the dlc, it hardly seems necessary... building interdependent colonies sounds like the kind of thing that happens well past the result of slogging through the 6 points I posted above. The easier, more immediate and cost effective solution, is to start a new base =p Which is something Klei may want to think about if they want to sell more copies of the dlc...

[droopy balls]

Originally posted by Jingseng:

1) by this point, this base is large enough that the maintenance type tasks take up the majority of your available work capacity. The colony spends little time expanding or changing and most of its time just being. This is compounded by your dupes general inefficiency (task selection is not weighted by proximity or relatedness... thus they harvest something, and instead of carrying it to where it is stored or needed, they leave it right where it is for someone else to pick up and move.... while they themselves move off anyway...they dig one square, and then travel across the map to do something else, then travel back to dig another square... personally I've never seen the prox setting, but I can imagine that, even with priority settings for tasks your dupes are generally better at (and, honestly, why should I even need to set that?) I can see that also causing a lot of tasks to fall through). It is additionally compounded by your dupes general tendency to drop things for pretty much no reason (leaving food partly finished at the table, suddenly dropping food to go to the bathroom, dropping what they are carrying to celebrate research, and so on).

I only have this problem early-game because I'm telling the dups to do too much as far supplying tasks go (I spread out fast and plant wheezeworts around my power plant which necessitates frequent phosphorite supply drops). You can alleviate these sorts of "outdoor" tasks with priority settings and, once you have sufficient power, conveyor systems. It also helps to build bathrooms outside of your base so that they don't need to go all the way back in the middle of a cycle for a potty break. Also watch for CO2 and unbreathable zones; that's a surefire way to get dups to "try" to complete a task, but in a painfully piecemeal fashion. Once you reduce tasks, the dups tend to be a lot better about dropping things.

Originally posted by Jingseng:

2) up to this point, it would be dangerous to expand your population much beyond 8-10 dupes. Accordingly, your base is laid out and designed for such a size. However, due to the size needed for all buildings (do automation sensors and the like really need to take up an unoccupied 1x1 or more? Likewise some stations are simply huge and prevent other necessary auxiliary structures from being built) as you progress in research, your available space disappears rapidly and, even with good planning, there will be a fair amount of nonsense placement and nightmare complexity (like piping).

I will admit, things always get messy at a certain point. I find it's good practice to leave at least a tile or two gap between all conveyances or circuits so that you have room to add as you go on. And I always make huge drops into chasms able to accommodate a fire pole for swiftness. I have never had a problem with space - if you dig out your temperate biome to its fullest extent, you should have ample room. I'm currently running a game with 12 dups living amongst 3 rec rooms, massage clinic, a bristle farm, a pincha farm, a hatch farm, hospital, 2 bathrooms, a cooking platform, a science & machinery platform, a fresh water pit, a polluted water pit, and I still have about 1/3 free space within the confines of my base.

Originally posted by Jingseng:

3) because of point #1 and 2, you pretty much need to increase your population to 16-20. Basically, double. But because of #2, it is difficult if not impossible to find efficient placement options for new living, hygiene, and eating locations. And adding new living, hygiene, eating, storage, and travel pathing only compounds the issues brought up in #2 - namely the inefficiency and nightmare/nonsense knots.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm played 1000+ cycle runs with only 12 dups, complete with space industry and final escape. If you're having trouble fitting everything, you should dig out your starting biome better and define the limits. Plan ahead accordingly, and you won't run into issues of space. Because I keep less dups, I also don't need to provide more for facilities like you mentioned - not that I don't have the space for it either way. If anything, with more dups, I will be consuming more reserves of food, oxygen, and energy (and producing more polluted water).

Originally posted by Jingseng:

4) additionally, the Phosphorite/chlorine/drecko caves make it difficult to expand... because these areas are enduringly and eternally producing 45c heat... so much so that it will bleed through abyssalite layers. So trying to manage your heat, post-inefficient expansion, is a losing battle (ironically, in the other direction from entropy). Even breaching an ice biome wont cool these areas... it will just melt the ice biome instead.

I haven't personally observed caustic biomes leaking heat through abyssalite; are you sure there wasn't a gap in the tiles somewhere? Also, heat is only so much a problem as how you choose to isolate and/or kill it. I'm only concerned if the heat is near plants, or building up in a power plant. First thing's first, did you protect your base with insulated tiles? If you're super tryhard, you can construct a water barrier around your entire base that is setup in a cooling loop.

I would recommend looking up ONI cooling system guides. If you're lazy like me, you could invest in placing wheezeworts at strategic locations - they will eventually need a conveyor system if you hope to cut around supplying phosphorite, and you can use the dreko caves as stables to harvest the phosphorite. Otherwise, use your imagination; there are tempshift plates for routing heat, cool slush geysers (which honestly fix overheating problems for anything if you find one), aquatuner cooling loop (supercoolant), thermo regulator cooling loop (hydrogen). I've seen others literally smash through all of the surrounding biomes and dig literally everything out to space exposure; probably the fastest (but most destructive) way to destroy the heat in a biome.

Originally posted by Jingseng:

5) #3 and 4 make increasing your power supply difficult, particularly given wiring limitations and the fact that wires are always considered to the same circuit if connected - without regard to whether they are on the same or different sides of a generator.

Power is the biggest challenge of any game. Just optimize your circuits; build wattage sensors on passive equipment so that they can make room for other appliances on the same circuit. Know when you're going to be using 1000 W (standard wire) versus 2000 W (conductive), or even greater (heavy watt recommended only for generators). The whole point of transformers is to divvy up your main power pool.

Originally posted by Jingseng:

6) while tearing down and rebuilding and relocating structures is simple in the first 30-45 cycles, it quickly becomes an impossible task - your dupes wont rebuild critical structures fast enough. You would, instead, need to completely rebuild a redesigned base elsewhere, and then either demolish or redesign your original base and move back. Which, as pointed out in #1, more work than your dupes are capable of performing in any kind of reasonable time frame. While this is how large public works are constructed in the real world, it is also slow and not-fun in the real world.

It sounds to me like you are playing on default speed. I might recommend you download a mod that increases play speed, because what you just explained does not make any sense. USE YOUR PRIORITY to force dups to complete tasks if it's urgent. There's a code yellow and code red for emergencies. Destroying objects does not take any time at all (unless it's tempshift plates), and you should really determine if the setup you're building is placed in a good spot before deciding it's not after the fact.

Originally posted by Jingseng:

There's more, but really... all these "challenges" aren't fun... they are artificially difficult for the sake of difficulty and tedious to deal with. The inability to designate circuits, to designate storage or drop off areas (I can't just say "throw trash here", I have to build and filter a storage bin, and set sweeping tasks), general tasks selection and performance inefficiency, infinite heat build up zones... it all scales up too and becomes not-fun.

Really, automation shouldn't be the answer to your dupes inefficiency or the base size... that just means your dupes dont do things that make sense, or arent doing things that they ought to be doing. Logic gates are one thing, but if I'm using conveyors or buildings to deliver, store, and sweep... it feels like those are things that the dupes should have been doing naturally anyway. In other words, couldn't I just automate the dupes?

You just contradicted yourself on storage. Also, keep in mind that the whole point of automation is so your dups can do BETTER, more WORTHWHILE tasks instead of simple supply runs. If you really don't want to automate, then build transit tubes so that your dups can do these silly tasks with speed. I will say that this game isn't for everyone, but you need to explore all avenues to these complaints you raised before saying it's all hopeless.

[ChainedDjinn]

Originally posted by Shiggu:

*A deluge of convoluted imperious bullet points spoken to validate a low-brow pompous perspective without a hint of camaraderie*

Honestly, you must get along great at parties.
We get it, your so great at the game you simply must let everybody know how insignificant a task it was and how laudable it is to be a paragon in the community as a whole...

It's too bad your sermon came across more in a way to browbeat and subdue the voices of those who are having difficulties, in a parallel wavelength of the "Git Gud" cultural stigma.

I have more empathy for Jingseng, Shame and DustBust's plight then your callous rhetoric.
I've felt the same sense of dissatisfaction of a base and the powerlessness to change it.
Of how dupes preform the most ridiculous of circuitous routes even with 'Job Proximity Enabled' and priority expanded on tasks. It's irritating we can't have a specific dupe preform a set of tasks in a specific area, even if it means kicking another off that task since the in the time they would take to get there the other could have it already finished.
If the dupes are 'programmed' with instructions upon printing, give the players a medium to change that code! It seems the dev's won't make them any smarter, so why not give us the means to experiment.

But I digress...

How about you showcase that impeccable base of yours, make a video and post it.
That way we can all poke holes and point out anything that we find erroneous, imprudent or woeful.

But hey, that's just my opinion...
just as you had yours.

[Jingseng]

Originally posted by ChainedDjinn:

Originally posted by Shiggu:

*A deluge of convoluted imperious bullet points spoken to validate a low-brow pompous perspective without a hint of camaraderie*

Honestly, you must get along great at parties.
We get it, your so great at the game you simply must let everybody know how insignificant a task it was and how laudable it is to be a paragon in the community as a whole...

It's too bad your sermon came across more in a way to browbeat and subdue the voices of those who are having difficulties, in a parallel wavelength of the "Git Gud" cultural stigma.

I have more empathy for Jingseng, Shame and DustBust's plight then your callous rhetoric.
I've felt the same sense of dissatisfaction of a base and the powerlessness to change it.
Of how dupes preform the most ridiculous of circuitous routes even with 'Job Proximity Enabled' and priority expanded on tasks. It's irritating we can't have a specific dupe preform a set of tasks in a specific area, even if it means kicking another off that task since the in the time they would take to get there the other could have it already finished.
If the dupes are 'programmed' with instructions upon printing, give the players a medium to change that code! It seems the dev's won't make them any smarter, so why not give us the means to experiment.

But I digress...

How about you showcase that impeccable base of yours, make a video and post it.
That way we can all poke holes and point out anything that we find erroneous, imprudent or woeful.

But hey, that's just my opinion...
just as you had yours.

Thank you.

[DustBust]

Originally posted by Jingseng:

Originally posted by ChainedDjinn:

Honestly, you must get along great at parties.
We get it, your so great at the game you simply must let everybody know how insignificant a task it was and how laudable it is to be a paragon in the community as a whole...

It's too bad your sermon came across more in a way to browbeat and subdue the voices of those who are having difficulties, in a parallel wavelength of the "Git Gud" cultural stigma.

I have more empathy for Jingseng, Shame and DustBust's plight then your callous rhetoric.
I've felt the same sense of dissatisfaction of a base and the powerlessness to change it.
Of how dupes preform the most ridiculous of circuitous routes even with 'Job Proximity Enabled' and priority expanded on tasks. It's irritating we can't have a specific dupe preform a set of tasks in a specific area, even if it means kicking another off that task since the in the time they would take to get there the other could have it already finished.
If the dupes are 'programmed' with instructions upon printing, give the players a medium to change that code! It seems the dev's won't make them any smarter, so why not give us the means to experiment.

But I digress...

How about you showcase that impeccable base of yours, make a video and post it.
That way we can all poke holes and point out anything that we find erroneous, imprudent or woeful.

But hey, that's just my opinion...
just as you had yours.

Thank you.

Felt the same, thanks.

On a separate note, I did find some improvement with job proximity (why would they make this so small?} but I could see why on vanilla you would not want this on early in the game and now I'm playing with the dupes just being good at everything (mod) but still having job "focuses". I'm starting to see that removing the "grindy" things about this game definitely doesn't break it, it actually makes it more focused on what you want. I do highly agree that the base game needs more attention and QoL. Its getting to get to the point where if all my mods were broke, I wouldn't play.

Funny part about all of this is the other day my son bumped the speed to x1 and watched the game in amazement.... how was this ever designed to run in that speed... it even looked like the graphics were struggling at that speed lol.

[Tux]

Originally posted by DustBust:

I've played this game many times over but I continue to run into the same boredom/lack of fun I believe around 100 cycles, the game feels like it slows down to a crawl, even on x3 speed, feels like even attempting at micromanaging/automating everything only helps out so much.

- I've reduced food intake but this becomes annoying
- I'm usually happy with 8-10 dupes but their productivity just drops.
- I don't really care to setup mini bases but feel like that is almost necessary
- I'm about to try the "No sleep" mod to see if that helps the situation.
- Even dupes dedicated to certain jobs eventually has drawbacks.
- I setup a lot of automation but doesn't help the overall slowing down of the game.

Its like the game migrates from a fun city builder/infrastructure builder to micro-manager and the travel times just slowly but surely kill my fun. I'm about to try turning off sleep to see if that helps a bit more in keeping the game moving and doing away with food even though I do like that mechanic.

honestly my opinion is just start over, try different maps etc.

I rarely ever play past 200 cycles.
late game in all games are highly over rated and often times people think they need to do it because its there to be done.
in most games the juice of the feedback loop is in early to mid anyway. In most games the late game the feedback loop to successes takes a looooong time, and then just turns into a real life job simulator

[DustBust]

Originally posted by Tux:

Originally posted by DustBust:

I've played this game many times over but I continue to run into the same boredom/lack of fun I believe around 100 cycles, the game feels like it slows down to a crawl, even on x3 speed, feels like even attempting at micromanaging/automating everything only helps out so much.

- I've reduced food intake but this becomes annoying
- I'm usually happy with 8-10 dupes but their productivity just drops.
- I don't really care to setup mini bases but feel like that is almost necessary
- I'm about to try the "No sleep" mod to see if that helps the situation.
- Even dupes dedicated to certain jobs eventually has drawbacks.
- I setup a lot of automation but doesn't help the overall slowing down of the game.

Its like the game migrates from a fun city builder/infrastructure builder to micro-manager and the travel times just slowly but surely kill my fun. I'm about to try turning off sleep to see if that helps a bit more in keeping the game moving and doing away with food even though I do like that mechanic.

honestly my opinion is just start over, try different maps etc.

I rarely ever play past 200 cycles.
late game in all games are highly over rated and often times people think they need to do it because its there to be done.
in most games the juice of the feedback loop is in early to mid anyway. In most games the late game the feedback loop to successes takes a looooong time, and then just turns into a real life job simulator

I agree and thats what I've been doing but its also very "unrewarding" in a manner since the physics, high efficiency loops, manipulating gases, solids, liquids as well as taming extreme temperatures. I feel like those areas would be EXTREMELY rewarding but this game just doesn't capitalize on it, this game just makes you struggle all the way till you quit! lol.

An expanded technology tree with more efficient machines to manipulate your surroundings I think would make this game flat out amazing. You start out managing resources and towards late game, you would need to be careful with powerful machines and extreme temps, both could cause death and destruction to your base.

[ChainedDjinn]

OK, now I think were on different pages a bit.
I do agree we need more tech (Bigger/high-pressure gas/liquid reservoir, Batteries<That use sulfer and saltwater, that's a thing right?> dupe management systems)
Bigger 'rooms' and more types. Things newbies can get the swing of sooner.

I dunno about the powerful machines and extreme temps, haven't you made a metal refinery? Those things can get HOT!
Honestly if you want difficulty you could get some of the mods that make it harder, like 'Diseases Restored' or 'Lights Out' but that can turn the game into even more of a slog.
I wanted something to do with being able to make or breed germs with the end goal being the opposite of 'Zombie Spores' but it being dangerous to attempt.

I'm not crazy about dupes dying without probably cause.
If I dug something stupid, shame on me. If they ran into somewhere and boiled themselves, dev's needa fix it so they don't. (Just a FEW brain cells? Please?)

Frankly I'm surprised they went with the 'other colonies' approach with the DLC, I was thinking they'ed do something more... 'in depth' if you catch my drift.

You guys should hop over on the ONI discord, lots of helpful people over there.
May be a few who are a lil elitist, but most are of the mindset 'You do you' so it's generally less toxic. Least that's been my experience.

Oh, before I go. If your having trouble with getting things built, someone I talked to gave me a workabout.
Make a work outpost; A barreks, Latrine and mess hall. Teenie tiny, near where your wanting work done. Get the dupes you want working moved over and use doors to block them from going on way or the other. Have 1 or 2 dupes supply the 'outter' fridge by making it higher priority with lower capacity, make sure it's people that don't get busy elsewhere and keep them from going past a certain point using doors again.
Idea is to have workers work over there, where delivery can't reach but they can't reach same area to bring food for others.

Least it's an idea to get things moving.
Later all

[Tux]

Originally posted by DustBust:

Originally posted by Tux:

honestly my opinion is just start over, try different maps etc.

I rarely ever play past 200 cycles.
late game in all games are highly over rated and often times people think they need to do it because its there to be done.
in most games the juice of the feedback loop is in early to mid anyway. In most games the late game the feedback loop to successes takes a looooong time, and then just turns into a real life job simulator

I agree and thats what I've been doing but its also very "unrewarding" in a manner since the physics, high efficiency loops, manipulating gases, solids, liquids as well as taming extreme temperatures. I feel like those areas would be EXTREMELY rewarding but this game just doesn't capitalize on it, this game just makes you struggle all the way till you quit! lol.

An expanded technology tree with more efficient machines to manipulate your surroundings I think would make this game flat out amazing. You start out managing resources and towards late game, you would need to be careful with powerful machines and extreme temps, both could cause death and destruction to your base.

I dont think you completely follow me though

I am saying ALL games..not just this one but ALL games, have a slower feedback loop after mid game and that is by design.

So as such, when the fun stops its fair to say its time to stop the game, because all games do not get more fun later, the best parts of ALL games is the early to mid, so if that is not enjoyable its safe to punt and move on.