4Kw Transformer

[joefitts63]

Is there any actual use for this building? There are 4 kinds of wire, and it isn't suited to any of them, so far as I can tell. It will allow both normal wire and conductive wire to be overloaded, but restricts the two high wattage wires to a ludicrously low limit. What don't I understand about its use?

[cswiger]

Yeah, the 4kW transformer isn't a good match for any type of wire so feel free to never use them. A pair of 1kW transformers is always going to be safer when powering a standard conductive wire line.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by cswiger:

Yeah, the 4kW transformer isn't a good match for any type of wire so feel free to never use them. A pair of 1kW transformers is always going to be safer when powering a standard conductive wire line.

By far more efficient, and just as safe, is to simply not have more than 2kW potential load on any given circuit.
Which suits the 4kW transformer perfectly fine, as it's smaller than the 2 1kW transformers you'd need for the job.

[AlexMBrennan]

By far more efficient, and just as safe, is to simply not have more than 2kW potential load on any given circuit.

No, it is not efficient to build hundreds of 4kW transformers to power my autosweepers (which activate once every 20 cycles) when I could just build 2 1kW transformers.

Also there is a mod that fixes this "oversight".

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2031115024

[De Espirit]

It's useful for powering a single sealed aquatuner, so you don't have to build two 1kW transformers or use vacuums to power it with heavi-watt wire. That's about it.

[gussmed]

Of course there’s a use for it.

A single 4KW transformer is smaller and cheaper than two 1KW transformers. You have to take care not to load the 2KW line with more than 2KW, but otherwise there’s no drawback to having 4KW of capacity instead of 2KW.

If you’re not using the 4KW transformer for 2KW lines, you’re not playing the game correctly. Watch any streamer with a lot of experience like John Francis, and you’ll see that they do that for all 2KW lines.

It’s true that if you use 2x 1KW transformers, you can load up a 2KW line with a lot of intermittent-demand loads without risk. I.e. put 10KW of load on a 2KW line. You won’t be able to operate most of the stuff on there at the same time, but there’s no risk.

That’s not a common case, though. Most of the time, even if you have intermittent loads, it’s possible or even common for all the intermittent devices to come on at the same time. It’s not useful to “save” on transformers that way if the result isn’t functional. Auto-miners clearing regolith, for example, only get used periodically, but when they do get used, they’re all needed.

Auto-sweepers usually don’t have a continuous load, but they’re not usually in big banks, either. Typically there’s 1-2 of them in a circuit plus a lot of other stuff. You could theoretically isolate all of them in one base-wide circuit, but that’s one very specific case, and you’re spending a lot of metal on extraneous wiring if you’re doing it.

Aside from the dead-common “4KW transformer and 2KW line” case, you can use banks of them to isolate high current lines. A set of 5 of these transformers will transfer power between two 20KW lines, for example.

That’s another unusual case, of course. I used to do it here and there before conductive Heavi-watt wire got upgraded to carry 50KW, but I don’t anymore.

[cswiger]

Originally posted by gussmed:

If you’re not using the 4KW transformer for 2KW lines, you’re not playing the game correctly. Watch any streamer with a lot of experience like John Francis, and you’ll see that they do that for all 2KW lines.

You are more than welcome to use the 4kW transformer if you like, but you are simply mistaken when you claim they are needed to play the game "correctly".

You can complete the two major goals in the game and all the rest of the achievements without ever using a large transformer.

You can also complete the game and all achievements without ever using a small transformer. However, many new players will run into problems with overloads causing wire damage which do not happen when using a pair of small transformers.

As for experienced players, if you know enough about ONI to use a 4kW transformer safely, you know enough to be able to use a pair of 1kW transformers instead and thus can pick whichever design suits your situation best. Using 8 tiles of space versus 6 is a mild price compared to the benefit of not risking an overload and wire damage.

It’s true that if you use 2x 1KW transformers, you can load up a 2KW line with a lot of intermittent-demand loads without risk. I.e. put 10KW of load on a 2KW line. You won’t be able to operate most of the stuff on there at the same time, but there’s no risk.

Correct. Using a pair of 1kW transformers allows one to connect a large potential load without wire damage that one would experience if a 4kW transformer was connected instead.

That’s not a common case, though. Most of the time, even if you have intermittent loads, it’s possible or even common for all the intermittent devices to come on at the same time. It’s not useful to “save” on transformers that way if the result isn’t functional. Auto-miners clearing regolith, for example, only get used periodically, but when they do get used, they’re all needed.

Auto-sweepers usually don’t have a continuous load, but they’re not usually in big banks, either. Typically there’s 1-2 of them in a circuit plus a lot of other stuff.

If you don't have big banks of auto-sweepers, are you not using them to automate ranches and farms?

I normally have a minimum of 4 Hatch ranches (one for each type) and two mealwood farms + drecko ranches. Each 24x4 ranch needs three auto-sweepers and two conveyor loaders for coverage, so that's 18 auto-sweepers used for just one type of building.

Add another one or two in the power plant delivering the coal, add another two in the kitchen, two or three in the Water Sieve + Pokeshell ranch, and you have roughly 30 auto-sweepers and twenty conveyor loaders just for the basic food and power needs of a ~10 dupe base.

That's not considering any used for industry, for a thimble reed or mushroom farm, in a metal volcano tamer, feeding sand to Deodorizers, etc...much less the needs of the space biome in late-game.

[Strygald]

Originally posted by gussmed:

If you’re not using the 4KW transformer for 2KW lines, you’re not playing the game correctly. Watch any streamer with a lot of experience like John Francis, and you’ll see that they do that for all 2KW lines.

There is on one correct way... you can either use the 4KW transformer and be careful not overload the 2KW wire circuit, use 2 x 1KW transformers and not care what consumers you put on the 2KW wire circuit, or even just use heavy-watt wire.

For myself, I only ever use transformers to run 2KW wire into insulated and sealed chambers. My whole base has heavy-watt wire everywhere, you can say that's wrong but when it makes not a jot of difference to my dupe's stress, it certainly makes supplying power throughout my base less headachey

[MessengerOfRage]

Originally posted by cswiger:

I normally have a minimum of 4 Hatch ranches (one for each type) and two mealwood farms + drecko ranches. Each 24x4 ranch needs three auto-sweepers and two conveyor loaders for coverage, so that's 18 auto-sweepers used for just one type of building.

honest question: who eats all the surplus? I only run 2 Hatch and 2 Drekko ranches and produce so much I stopped farimg.

for hatch ranches you can do with only 1 sweeper:
restrict their movement with a door and 1 tile ontop, thats 3 height so the hatches cannot jump it, as long as you leave out the 4th topmost tile the whole ranch will still count as 1 room for overcrowding purposes... of course you want to build a 25x4 room and put a single tile somewhere to still be at maximum room size.
you can put a storage bin, 2 feeders, a critter drop of and the grooming station all in the reach of 1 sweeper... added benefit: the time to call a critter to the grooming station is also reduced as they need to travel a couple tiles at max.

[cswiger]

Originally posted by Coookyman:

Originally posted by cswiger:

I normally have a minimum of 4 Hatch ranches (one for each type) and two mealwood farms + drecko ranches. Each 24x4 ranch needs three auto-sweepers and two conveyor loaders for coverage, so that's 18 auto-sweepers used for just one type of building.

honest question: who eats all the surplus? I only run 2 Hatch and 2 Drekko ranches and produce so much I stopped farimg.

The dreckos mostly consume the mealwood so I don't end up buried in meal lice / liceloaf, if that was your concern. :-) Once I get a significant surplus of food, I'll probably disable harvesting of the mealwood plants entirely.

The hatch ranches provide plenty of high quality food via omelettes and some meat for BBQ, anyway. They're enough to support a full squad of twenty dupes, although I normally stop at around a dozen.

Mostly I have so many hatches to produce a big surplus of coal and to breed up to the smooth hatches for metal refining.

for hatch ranches you can do with only 1 sweeper:
restrict their movement with a door and 1 tile ontop, thats 3 height so the hatches cannot jump it, as long as you leave out the 4th topmost tile the whole ranch will still count as 1 room for overcrowding purposes... of course you want to build a 25x4 room and put a single tile somewhere to still be at maximum room size.

Sure, or I could build 8x12 ranch areas, which I do sometimes-- but more likely for pufts or maybe normal dreckos with a tri-layer hydrogen/oxygen/chlorine setup using balm lilies once I get a full set of glossy dreckos.

Anyway, I tend to place some power transformers, maybe some storage, liquid reservoirs, whatever in the ranch space, so I don't really worry about having the 24x4 layout. Yes, the ranchers can be delayed a bit, but I setup food via storage / critter feeders next to the grooming station, so the hatches generally stay near.

[chaney]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

By far more efficient, and just as safe, is to simply not have more than 2kW potential load on any given circuit.

No, it is not efficient to build hundreds of 4kW transformers to power my autosweepers (which activate once every 20 cycles) when I could just build 2 1kW transformers.

Also there is a mod that fixes this "oversight".

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2031115024

Well, ok. I'm foolishly going to try and improve the forum by giving advice. It's not easy advice to give, nor was it easy advice for me to take when I got it years ago.

I'm sorry to do this publicly, but don't know another practical way. Perhaps others can benefit from it, so here goes. I say this all with the best intentions, and wish I had been told this earlier. Of course, I could be wrong.

I suspect you and I are, fundamentally, a lot alike in one way. You are very skilled at watching details and pointing out exceptions and problems with claims others have made. I have been told I have that skill, too, so perhaps there is some understanding. The problem with that (certainly valuable) skill is that many people can perceive using it without care as officious. I spent far too many years of my life seeming to be officious when I was trying to help. It puts people off, and also makes them generally less likely to accept what you are trying to get across.

You bring up a great case where two Transformers will do the job very well, where a single Large Transformer won't robustly handle the job, and I think we all agree two or more Large Transformers would be less efficient than two regular Transformers in that example. Pointing out this kind of exception is great, and I thank you for the insight it gives.

Intended or not, by starting with "No," it reads as strong contradiction or full negation of the original claim, rather than a caveat. Certainly there are many many cases where gimmethegepgun's method is absolutely more efficient in terms of space, heat, and decor. That method does require extra care by the player, so maybe it should come with a stronger warning. But you and I know that "no serviceable parts" warning labels don't apply to everyone - qualified service people have different rules.

You have good insights to add to the conversation, but strongly critical intros or flat denial sound argumentative, and people will lose the technical/artistic value of what you say in the apparent intensity. Tone it down and the rest of us will be happier, you will communicate your thoughts better, and you will be happier too - from my own experience. Again, I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

For on-topic content, "efficient" can be defined many ways. From oni-db.com

Power Transformer:
Size 2x2
Decor (Radius: 2) -10
Power +1 kW
Heat +1 kDTU/s
Build with 200 kg Metal Ore

Large Power Transformer:
Size 3x2
Decor (Radius: 2) -10
Power +4 kW
Heat +1 kDTU/s
Build with 200 kg Refined Metal

For efficiency of space, 1 Large takes 6 tiles, 2 regular take 8 tiles. 1 Large wins.

For efficiency of Decor, 1 Large defiles an area by 10, 2 regular defile a larger area by 10-20. 1 Large wins.

For efficiency of Power, either may do the job, 1 Large requires more care or restrictions.
2 regular win, but conditionally 1 Large may be as good.

For efficiency of Heat, 1 Large sheds 1 kDTU/s, 2 regular shed 2 kDTU/s. 1 Large wins.

For material efficiency, there are many possible situations depending on materials at hand an available technology, but 1 Large takes no more raw Ore in the worst case. The one time cost of processing Ore to Refined (heat, power, time) is usually going to be negligible, so 1 Large wins or ties.

Design to the situation and personal preference. That makes it interesting - following a series of "always right" decisions would be no more satisfying than a game of Candy Land.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by chaney:

That makes it interesting - following a series of "always right" decisions would be no more satisfying than a game of Candy Land.

Urgh. How is Candy Land even considered a "game"? You have literally no agency.

[chaney]

Hehe :)

I've had that talk more than once sadly. The only decision in Candy Land is to play or not. (Possibly when to just stop.) It isn't even a satisfying process, except looking at the art! Strangely, a game does not require decisions or skill. I agree it is the quintessence of ceding agency :)

[joefitts63]

So I appreciate all the input. It still leaves me wondering why you should use the 4K transformer at all. If you are going to micro manage the power load so your line cannot overload, why not just connect your wire directly to the heavy-watt main? It seem to me that would save you both the space and the decor hit.

[MessengerOfRage]

Originally posted by joefitts63:

So I appreciate all the input. It still leaves me wondering why you should use the 4K transformer at all. If you are going to micro manage the power load so your line cannot overload, why not just connect your wire directly to the heavy-watt main? It seem to me that would save you both the space and the decor hit.

that would overload the wire. overload is allways counted for the total load on the network so if you have a heavy watt main running 5kw every wire connected to it will be subject to 5kw even if it is only feeding a single lamp.

[joefitts63]

I see. Thanks. Maybe I will just use a mod that adds a 2K transformer then. Why micro manage when the feature should have existed in the first place? There flat out should have been 1K, 2K, and 20K transformers in the base game.