Conveyor Shutoff Not Working as Expected

[netjera]

I'm using a solid element sensor to sort lime from everything else. If the sensor detects lime, it sends a green signal to the conveyor shutoff on the bottom rail. If the sensor does not detect lime, it sends a green signal to the conveyor shutoff on the top rail.

When lime came through the conveyor, everything worked as expected. This time around, I sent granite through the conveyor and discovered a problem: Even though the top conveyor shutoff is green, granite is still moving through the bottom conveyor shutoff. It is clearly disabled by the automation grid, but for some reason, twice the amount of granite is going through the 'closed' rail than the open one. Can anyone explain to me what I'm doing wrong, please?

Here's a little animation to show you what I mean:

https://gyazo.com/0170bb955d781c62e30172d1a512e8d8

Thanks so much in advance!

[Nerankar]

I'm not sure, but do you see how the top shutoff shakes when it's working and the bottom one isn't? I think the bottom rail is continuous and can pass the shutoff that way.

[netjera]

Originally posted by Nerankar:

I'm not sure, but do you see how the top shutoff shakes when it's working and the bottom one isn't? I think the bottom rail is continuous and can pass the shutoff that way.

I see what you mean about the shaking, but what do you mean by continuous? Thanks for trying to help. :)

[Nerankar]

Normally, you build the conveyor rail to the entrance of the shutoff and stop there. Then you build another rail away from the exit of the shutoff. The entrance and exit are not connected with rails. I think you accidentally connected the two parts.

Try removing the lower shutoff and see what the rail looks like behind it. If it is a continuous line, then you have found the problem.

[Aranador]

Using a shutoff to sort, relies on a single shut off, not two. If it detects what you want, it passes through the shut off, it it does not , it goes past the shut off. Make sure the detector is exatly before the shut off. Continue the line for 'everything else' beyond the shut off entry. Have the lime line start from the shut off exit.

What is happening in your build is this:

Item enters sensor. Sensor sends a signal, item has 2 ways to go, it alternates. If item is wrong and went to lime shutoff, it stops in the input, because the shutoff is off. Then the automation signal ends, and the item proceeds through the now opened shotoff. If the item was wrong, and it went to the non-lime shutoff, it can move through the opened shutoff. Then the shutoff resets, but almost immediately after, the next wrong item arrives, and the shutoff toggles back. Thus items wind up going both ways, because the whole set up is essentially flawed.

[Peez Machine]

Re: the continuous thing: Imagine if if the shutoff were a bridge. You wouldn't run a pipe connecting the white and green ports on the bridge. One line feeds in, another line draws out. Connecting them results in odd behavior including the bypassing that you're seeing on your lower valve.

[netjera]

Originally posted by Nerankar:

Normally, you build the conveyor rail to the entrance of the shutoff and stop there. Then you build another rail away from the exit of the shutoff. The entrance and exit are not connected with rails. I think you accidentally connected the two parts.

Try removing the lower shutoff and see what the rail looks like behind it. If it is a continuous line, then you have found the problem.

I did not realize this, and I obviously wasn't paying attention. This explains why one of my setups was working and two were not.. because they're probably all built different ways. I will definitely try this, thanks. :)

[netjera]

Originally posted by Aranador:

Using a shutoff to sort, relies on a single shut off, not two. If it detects what you want, it passes through the shut off, it it does not , it goes past the shut off. Make sure the detector is exatly before the shut off. Continue the line for 'everything else' beyond the shut off entry. Have the lime line start from the shut off exit.

I'm not able to visualize what you mean here, about how to put it together; although I think I understand what you mean about why it's not working. I put two shutoffs because the first one wasn't working properly.

Originally posted by Aranador:

What is happening in your build is this:

Item enters sensor. Sensor sends a signal, item has 2 ways to go, it alternates. If item is wrong and went to lime shutoff, it stops in the input, because the shutoff is off. Then the automation signal ends, and the item proceeds through the now opened shotoff. If the item was wrong, and it went to the non-lime shutoff, it can move through the opened shutoff. Then the shutoff resets, but almost immediately after, the next wrong item arrives, and the shutoff toggles back. Thus items wind up going both ways, because the whole set up is essentially flawed.

I think I understand what you mean.. I can see exactly where it goes one way because the sensor shows red, and then passes through when it's opened.

I think I'm having some trouble visualizing the configuration of the rails themselves. I place the rail, the sensor goes on the rail, then the shutoff goes on the rail.. the line leading out of the shutoff goes off to wherever those goods are supposed to go. Where is the other line going? In my head, it doesn't seem as if there's room for the other line?

Thanks so much for the help!

[netjera]

Originally posted by Peez Machine:

Re: the continuous thing: Imagine if if the shutoff were a bridge. You wouldn't run a pipe connecting the white and green ports on the bridge. One line feeds in, another line draws out. Connecting them results in odd behavior including the bypassing that you're seeing on your lower valve.

This was an excellent explanation, thanks! I totally understand that part now. :). Lazy building on my part. :)

[netjera]

Thank you so much all of you for the great responses. I didn't expect to get so much help and so quickly!

[Aranador]

Lets see if I can make a screenshot to help explain some things

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2999876162


The first arrangement is obvious - items flow from the input, along the rail, to the output.

The second is a basic rail branch, items on the rail will alternate between each path. This sort of branch, you happen to have in the middle of your two shut offs, so material goes both ways. before they even get to the shut offs

The third is using a bridge. All items on the rail will cross the bridge, because the input of the bridge has priority over the rail . Once the right side is full, then material will have to go to the left soreage.
(BTW, an output on a loaded rail has lowest priority and will only add to the rail when there is space).

The final system is a 'proper' shutoff. Items on the rail are tested, then the shutoff activates or not. If it is active, it's input has priority and the item will be pulled across the shutoff. If it is off, items must continue down the rail.


I hope this helps you design new fancier systems !!

[netjera]

Originally posted by Aranador:

Lets see if I can make a screenshot to help explain some things

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2999876162

OH!!!! I was putting the rail IN the white side and OUT the green side, and then making an off branch from the sensor. The white side of the conveyor shutoff works like a door the goods go through, and the green side is a different door. I thought the goods went in one end and out the other!

Thank you for the diagram. :)

And thanks for the excellent explanation! I think I caught you partly posted and we cross-posted. :D

[robotnikkkk]

=YUP,THAT'S THE RIGHT ANSWER DUE TO RULE ABOUT "SENSOR MEASURES WHATEVER PLACED NEXT TO INTAKE"

.................

[Aranador]

No, sensor measures what is on the rail directly on the sensor. Then the timing of the logic signal lasts long enough for the item tested to transition to the next rail, and if that has an input that is now enabled by the signal, the input can snatch it up.

This distinction might not seem important, but it can be, for timers, counters, delay systems, and various other more advanced logic systems.

[netjera]

Originally posted by Aranador:

No, sensor measures what is on the rail directly on the sensor. Then the timing of the logic signal lasts long enough for the item tested to transition to the next rail, and if that has an input that is now enabled by the signal, the input can snatch it up.

This distinction might not seem important, but it can be, for timers, counters, delay systems, and various other more advanced logic systems.

I *did* notice this.. I had some sensors too far away from things when I first began building. I assumed that gates would be 'held open' until whatever was crossing passed through. Nope. If it's on the sensor, the sensor is green. If it's off, the sensor is red. Which means as SOON as it starts to move off the sensor and the sensor turns red, the condition is no longer met *as it's passing to the next space*. That's when I started clumping everything together, lol.

(Didn't solve my last problem, but still.. I was heading sort of in the right direction, at least. :D )

[netjera]

Originally posted by Aranador:

Lets see if I can make a screenshot to help explain some things

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2999876162


The first arrangement is obvious - items flow from the input, along the rail, to the output.

The second is a basic rail branch, items on the rail will alternate between each path. This sort of branch, you happen to have in the middle of your two shut offs, so material goes both ways. before they even get to the shut offs

The third is using a bridge. All items on the rail will cross the bridge, because the input of the bridge has priority over the rail . Once the right side is full, then material will have to go to the left soreage.
(BTW, an output on a loaded rail has lowest priority and will only add to the rail when there is space).

The final system is a 'proper' shutoff. Items on the rail are tested, then the shutoff activates or not. If it is active, it's input has priority and the item will be pulled across the shutoff. If it is off, items must continue down the rail.


I hope this helps you design new fancier systems !!

Does the rail for the white side have to go straight through? I made it with a turn *after* the white door, and it's still randomly going out the green end about half of the time. :/

https://gyazo.com/f3b8c2c969c6cff61dd3f4f86888c951