Why doesn't the hydrogen generator require oxygen and create water?

[eatonpye]

Cause, you know, that's how that really works. Should be pretty much 1 hydrogen + 2 oxygen = 1 water, on the molecular level.

[Cotaks]

uh because it splits water into oxygen and hydrogen?

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by eatonpye:

Cause, you know, that's how that really works.

Do not expect even the slightest bit of realism from ONI. Laws of physics are being broken left and right.

[Angela™]

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

Originally posted by eatonpye:

Cause, you know, that's how that really works.

Do not expect even the slightest bit of realism from ONI. Laws of physics are being broken left and right.

V A C C U U M H E A T

[old.school]

Originally posted by Cotaks:

uh because it splits water into oxygen and hydrogen?

You're thinking about the Electrolyzer which is under your Oxygen tab. OP it talking about the Hydrogen Generator in the Power tab which converts Hydrogen gas into electricity. But irl a hydrogen generator takes hydrogen as fuel and produces electricity BUT it also produces water and heat as its byproducts.

[Astasia]

Because then electrolysis becomes a process that's not viable within the energy economy of the game. Electrolysis generally consumes much more energy than the resulting hydrogen and oxygen could produce in a hydrogen generator, there's loss and inefficiency on both sides. If they make a realistic hydrogen generator they need realistic electrolysis and that would break the game in a number of ways.

[eatonpye]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Because then electrolysis becomes a process that's not viable within the energy economy of the game. Electrolysis generally consumes much more energy than the resulting hydrogen and oxygen could produce in a hydrogen generator, there's loss and inefficiency on both sides. If they make a realistic hydrogen generator they need realistic electrolysis and that would break the game in a number of ways.

Basically, what you're saying is that by having one process that violates the laws of thermodynamics, they then have to introduce more processes that violate the laws of thermodynamics. Suggested alternative: Use the laws of thermodynamics consistently- at least with things you can build. I get the reasons for volcanoes and vents, but because those exist it should be possible to make the rest of the game a fair approximation of real world dynamics.

It's interesting- when I complain that the game prevents obvious, simple solutions to problems- like putting lids on bottles of p-water, for example, or killing germs with a chlorination building (like a bubbler), people tell me the game is all about challenges. Believe me, there are plenty of complex challenges using real world thermodynamics- but that would break the game?

[AlexMBrennan]

The role of the electrolyzer is to produce oxygen for your dupes to breathe; if you had to use the oxygen to burn the hydrogen then the entire thing would be pointless (you would have to vent the hydrogen into space instead).

If it helps then think of the "hydrogen generator" (IRL a device that generates hydrogen btw) as a fusion rector.

The "realistic" option for dealing with oxygen is to revamp all food plants to convert CO2 and H2O into O2 and C6H12O6, with dupes doing the same process in reverse... but then what? You never need to worry about water, or oxygen, or anything.

Would that be fun? You build one farm and win the game?

[eatonpye]

Well, the 'hydrogen powered generator' would still have a role IRL, to generate power. Photosynthesis is a pretty good way to generate oxygen IRL, but even if you wanted to split water to make oxygen, you could do it when needed. It's not like the hydrogen powered generator is the only generator in the building.

Using real world dynamics would require different solutions than the ones imposed by the fantasy mechanics, but they would be just as challenging and just as solvable. It might require a bit of tweaking of the biome generation or other start conditions- like availability of some pre-processed supplies, but that seems reasonable to me.

[McTraveller]

Pretty sure the hydrogen generators use some of the Gravitas tech that leeches off the fourth dimension or whatever.

[eatonpye]

Originally posted by eatonpye:

Well, the 'hydrogen powered generator' would still have a role IRL, to generate power. Photosynthesis is a pretty good way to generate oxygen IRL, but even if you wanted to split water to make oxygen, you could do it when needed. It's not like the hydrogen powered generator is the only generator in the building.

Using real world dynamics would require different solutions than the ones imposed by the fantasy mechanics, but they would be just as challenging and just as solvable. It might require a bit of tweaking of the biome generation or other start conditions- like availability of some pre-processed supplies, but that seems reasonable to me.

I think if building one farm would 'win the game' we'd already have orbital space colonies and moon cities. The loop you describe is powered by sunlight on earth, and in an asteroid base you'd either have to make it to the surface and A) set up food production there; or B) make it the surface and create sustainable solar power collectors before your non-renewable energy resources ran out. You'd still have all the other challenges of sterilization, water management, energy production and distribution, and heat management along the way.

Heat management would be a huge deal, because it takes energy to create cooling, and the produces more heat. Until you reach the surface, heat can be a big killer- either directly or by keeping crops from growing.

[Astasia]

Originally posted by eatonpye:

Basically, what you're saying is that by having one process that violates the laws of thermodynamics

Pretty much every single thing in the game violates every law of science known to man. Lighting doesn't make sense, gravity doesn't make sense, fluid dynamics and pressure don't make sense, diseases don't make sense, resource production doesn't make sense, temperature convection and radiation don't make sense, the 2d plane of the game doesn't make sense, I could go on all day. It's a game, it's not a physics simulator, things are balanced around gameplay and achieving a specific challenge and complexity level. You have to think within the rules of the game to solve the unique puzzles it presents, that's what makes it entertaining.

You keep asking for "realism" and "logic" in a game that was never presented as a realistic or logical game, and all of your suggestions and complaints I have seen so far would break the currently intended balance by changing vital puzzle pieces to many strategies and plans the game offers. Everything works the wrong way for a reason, everything has a specific use or specific challenge to overcome or solve because of how it works.

[Angela™]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Originally posted by eatonpye:

Basically, what you're saying is that by having one process that violates the laws of thermodynamics

Pretty much every single thing in the game violates every law of science known to man. Lighting doesn't make sense, gravity doesn't make sense, fluid dynamics and pressure don't make sense, diseases don't make sense, resource production doesn't make sense, temperature convection and radiation don't make sense, the 2d plane of the game doesn't make sense, I could go on all day. It's a game, it's not a physics simulator, things are balanced around gameplay and achieving a specific challenge and complexity level. You have to think within the rules of the game to solve the unique puzzles it presents, that's what makes it entertaining.

You keep asking for "realism" and "logic" in a game that was never presented as a realistic or logical game, and all of your suggestions and complaints I have seen so far would break the currently intended balance by changing vital puzzle pieces to many strategies and plans the game offers. Everything works the wrong way for a reason, everything has a specific use or specific challenge to overcome or solve because of how it works.

But consider VACCUUM HEAT

[dunbal]

Because this is advanced tech, silly, and it's actually a fusion reactor: 2 H2 --> He2 and the helium is immediately vented into space lest your dupes start squeaking in very high registers! :D

[asanger]

Originally posted by dunbal:

Because this is advanced tech, silly, and it's actually a fusion reactor: 2 H2 --> He2 and the helium is immediately vented into space lest your dupes start squeaking in very high registers! :D

My thought exactly.
But I was hoping they would add Helium with the debuff Speaky Voice

[old.school]

Originally posted by eatonpye:

Cause, you know, that's how that really works. Should be pretty much 1 hydrogen + 2 oxygen = 1 water, on the molecular level.

The purpose of the hydrogen generator though is to make electricity...water is just a byproduct. From what i've read it doesnt take a lot of oxygen to ignite hydrogen...you dont even need oxygen you can use some kind of oxidizing material. So i think the real question is: for a generator outputting X how much hydrogen is being used vs how *little* oxygen or oxidizing material is being used and how much water byproduct is being made.