Are only my Duplicants suicidally stupid?

[Fly]

Seriously, if there's two ways to do something, they will choose the way that is causing the most trouble. They stand on ledges that get cut off from the only way out, they will build walls to seal off rooms while they're standing on the sealed off side, they will climb on ledges that are too high to climb down from as soon as the block they climbed off from gets mined away and of course they will gladly destroy the block they stand on and fall into the water tank below without a chance to avoid drowning.

I spend more time rescuing my duplicants than actually building my base. Are just my duplicants so stupid or is that working as designed? Or is there some sort of behaviour that I have to take into account when building?

[Hedning]

Originally posted by Grek:

Originally posted by Hedning:

. Again it just sounds like you want the game to be easier.

wrong. me need smarter dupes.

Yes, you don't want to use the solutions the game gives you. You want the game to play itself without your intervention. Again the game provides you with a solution for putting sleeping dupes to work which works perfectly fine. Your only argument for why it is bad makes no sense.

Originally posted by Grek:

and thats why you decided to ignore "cot" and "printer" words. fine.

I didn't ignore anything, but I focused on the problematic word because that's where the problem was.

Originally posted by Grek:

If asteroid have free/assigned to dupe X bed, in case of inability to reach this bed, dupe X should be active (dig, build)until totally exhausted.

So what if that bed is unreachable because you are renovating that area? Like for example if it is not currently on the floor.

Also isn't there already an "unreachable bed" notification? Can't remember. I know there's an "unreachable food" if your dupe gets stuck.

[MisterSpock]

There should be an alert if a dupe need oxygen but cant find a path. There are alerts for everything, but not this basic one.

[Grek]

Originally posted by Hedning:

Originally posted by Grek:

wrong. me need smarter dupes.

Yes, you don't want to use the solutions the game gives you. You want the game to play itself without your intervention. Again the game provides you with a solution for putting sleeping dupes to work which works perfectly fine. Your only argument for why it is bad makes no sense.

Originally posted by Grek:

and thats why you decided to ignore "cot" and "printer" words. fine.

I didn't ignore anything, but I focused on the problematic word because that's where the problem was.

Originally posted by Grek:

If asteroid have free/assigned to dupe X bed, in case of inability to reach this bed, dupe X should be active (dig, build)until totally exhausted.

So what if that bed is unreachable because you are renovating that area? Like for example if it is not currently on the floor.

Also isn't there already an "unreachable bed" notification? Can't remember. I know there's an "unreachable food" if your dupe gets stuck.

it doesn't make sense to discuss anything with person who can read thoughts. again: me need less stupid dupes.

in your case then make it reachable. plain and simple.

[Grek]

Originally posted by Hedning:

You want the game to play itself without your intervention.

you just did one of core features management games

[chaney]

Originally posted by Grek:

Originally posted by chaney:

If you don't set tasks that could put your Dupes in danger, they'll be much safer.

what about visiting surface by dupes to find meat in regolith piles?
or wasting fuel in jet atmo suit when they digging flat surface?

Hovering when unnecessary is the type of improvement that could likely be made. Good suggestion.

Let me clarify. Going to dangerous areas requires some preparation. "Go dig that tile holding up the magma above you" is a command that will put a Dupe in danger. "Go to space for a long time naked" would put them in danger. "Dig all this stuff out that is over a deep pit of water without a way to climb out" puts them in danger. Building ladders/tiles/suit stations etc. *before* removing critical tiles or going dangerous places is the idea here. The player has a lot of authority to control order of execution by not scheduling tasks until they are safe.

"me need smarter dupes." This is the best piece of humor on the internets today, thank you for that one. It does remind me of a line from Chief Phillips in Apocalypse Now right after Captain Willard accuses Clean of specializing in "busting my balls." I don't believe you're intentionally doing that, so I'll try better communication instead of being a wiseguy.

[Grek]

Originally posted by deansdw17:

Me need smarter dupes-oogabooga-You need to be smarter.

my base have atmo suits. nearly surface there is small room with 2 atmo suit docks, and 2 jet suits

dupe running from his bed to checkpoint, wear atmo suit, reaching room with jetsuits (he's putting his suit on dock, run couple of tiles in hot co2 atmosphere) equip jet suit, and going to surface.

sounds fine and pretty clear? 100%

some ♥♥♥♥ start happening when this dupe NOT busy. he's visiting room filled with very hot co2
(100c+) unequip atmo suit, and start getting damage. yea, this stupid creature literally killing himself without any reason in room with available atmo and jet suits.

and after this you saying that me need to be smarter. BS, lmao.

i played 700hrs in game (and i like it, sure). and AI of colonists are worst so far i have seen in games of this genre
https://youtu.be/AOUtrQ5tPe0
https://youtu.be/QRcbLpJTQRo

i think that you're just typical fanboi who defending his object of adoration, and ignoring obvious game flaws

[Smohyee]

Originally posted by Hedning:

And if the coal generator produced 20kW you would only need one generator. Again it just sounds like you want the game to be easier.

These last few commenters are the problem with improvement request threads, they are doing exactly what I first pointed out will happen with any game suggestion: defending a bad game mechanic at all costs despite many valid arguments against it. Your accusation of us just wanting the game to be 'easier' is absurd and insulting, as well as quite dumb. Yes, bad design or bugs make a game harder, but if you can't see the difference between well designed mechanics that present enjoyable challenges and straight up bad implementation, then you shouldn't be commenting on improvement requests.

1. Red alert should not be necessary because it puts the whole base on alert, you should be able to override the actions of a single duplicant. You're the one who argued that we should prioritize user control over dupes vs better AI.

2. We shouldn't have to manually intervene in the first place, red alert or no. Dupes should not be digging in such a way that they get themselves stuck, and if they do there should be both clear AI actions defined, AND clear UI indicators so we know whats up. Neither of these are present now.


Quite frankly, the prioritization mechanism around bulk dig jobs needs to be vastly improved. No, this is not a particularly simple AI problem to solve, but there are plenty of iterations that could be made over the current *very poor* state of the AI.

[Smohyee]

Here's one very common scenario that everyone will recognize, that has an easy fix : apply the dig command to a row of blocks that can only be accessed from the left side by dupes. Will the dupes prioritize their dig order to start from the right, and work their way left, so they continue to have access to all blocks that need to be mined without intervention? When multiple dupes are working in concert, will they account for each others positions when digging to make sure they don't get each other stuck?

HAHAHA no of course not. They will start with the closest block, aka the leftmost blocks, the ones required to grant pathing access to the blocks on the right. And if multiple dupes were digging at once, and the one digging the leftmost blocks finishes before the one working on the right blocks? Well, now that dupe is stuck, having his path destroyed by his colleague.

This isn't AI that presents 'fun challenges'. This is straight up bad AI implentation.

'Sounds like you just want an easier game'... yeah, thats right, because the solution to this problem right now is very unenjoyable micromanagement. We have two fixes to such a problem: issue dig orders one or two blocks at a time, rather than a large section; or lay down temporary block/ladder scaffolding to ensure access to dig projects, only to have to remove them afterwards (and then you end up with the exact same problem when deconstructing the scaffolding).

Neither of those solutions add meaningful challenges to the game, nor is there any indication that was the intended design (eg why allow digging to be a mass-select command if the intention was for it to cause logistical problems every time you use it? Answer: it obviously wasn't the intention of the design, just the result of poor AI implementation.)


Here's a fun little analogy for you clowns to consider:

Imagine if AI pathing told your dupes to take the longest available route between point A and B every time?

We'd have Hedning and deansdw17 in here talking about how thats part of the 'charm of the game', and there's nothing wrong with it, and we just need to get gud n00bs.

Seriously, if you cant contribute to the discussion beyond 'lol your idea is bad' just stay out of it. You have yet to offer anything beyond baseless vapid criticism.

[Bokonon]

lol your idea is bad

[Hedning]

You just say should over and over without providing any argument. Why should you be able to control single dupes? That's not what the game is about. The game is not about micromanaging the movements of single dupes, it has never been. Being able to micromanage single dupes would remove the strategy aspect of setting up orders correctly and would introduce some majorly tedious micromanaging work which you would have to do if you wanted your dupes to be most efficient, not only when they are in trouble, but all the time.

Red alert fixes the issue of dupes being stuck during nap time. Yes it wakes up all of your dupes. Why is that such a bad thing? Yes, it may stress them and/or make them less efficient for a little while, but using red alert indicates an avoidable failure, so why shouldn't that failure be punished? Also if you have built a robust base your dupes should be able to brush off that red alert in no time without any major consequences.

I don't consider saving dupes as tedious busy work. If anything it introduces a small random variable that breaks up your daily routine. I don't think the ai should start digging or building on its own as that could destroy tiles that you think is important but the game couldn't possibly know.

There are several indicators that tells you a dupe is stuck. "idle" and "unreachable food" may be the most obvious. If you want a specific "dupe is probably stuck" warning I wouldn't be against that.

Also I was talking specifically about the red alert mechanic. For the general AI I said "I agree that the ai could probably benefit from being more smart" in my second reply to this topic, so don't attribute beliefs to me that I clearly don't support.

[MisterSpock]

Originally posted by Bokonon:

lol your idea is bad

Very deep opinion

[Bokonon]

Originally posted by MisterSpock:

Very deep opinion

Look at the last paragraph before my reply, he was asking for it ...

[chaney]

I'm not generally a fan of acid attitudes, but this particular snark amused me. Why? It was mocking, which usually isn't good, but it was a response to postings that don't seem at all persuasive. I felt frustration at and with those posts and their author as well as empathy for the point of view. Humor can be the result of conflict in the mind - in this case a reasonable desire by a critic of the game vs. practical technical reality (in my estimation.) Humor releases some tension, although it can cause more, too. In this case, it helped me lose frustration, and perhaps can motivate a clearer and more rational discussion.

We've all got opinions and some are bound to be different. That's fine. We don't have different facts, although we perceive them differently. Arguing by stating an opposing opinion will not persuade the rational on the other side. Rational discussion doesn't always work, either, but it usually should - my opinion.

Smohyee describes a recognizable scenario with an "easy fix." Set tasks to dig blocks "that can only be accessed from the left side." Then, implies the blocks should be dug from right to left, but mocks the AI for not doing that with "HAHAHA no of course not." Can you clarify the example, because it seems to demand a contradiction?

Many games have terrible AI. The great Civ series diplomacy and combat tactics come to mind. A literal few lines of code executed once per turn could vastly improve both and would take an imperceptible amount of time. Pathing and task ordering, on the other hand, have huge branching factors and computational time grows out of control very rapidly as I tried to explain before. I'll try to give some references if people need them. The game already strains most computers as time goes on, so adding a poorly scaling AI would cripple it for most players at some point. Some fixes and improvements can surely be made, as Hedning and I have both agreed, but there are limits. There are some good and practical suggestions here.

Straw man examples and analogy to absurd limits don't help a constructive discussion. Suggesting that a deliberately inefficient AI would appeal to game defenders is as invalid a fallacy as it would be to suggest critics just want a "Win Game" button. Communication is hard.

Agree, disagree, human nature. Want to advance the discussion? Keep it rational and give reasons that can be evaluated. Thanks to those that have done so.

[Grek]

Originally posted by chaney:

Agree, disagree, human nature. Want to advance the discussion? Keep it rational and give reasons that can be evaluated. Thanks to those that have done so.

there is no 2 opinions about AI of dupes. just check video i provided above

[MisterSpock]

Still demanding a "dupe cant find path to oxygen, when less 75% breath" message.
Whats this discussion about autowin here?