Any way to enable 2kw of power transfer?

[Shame]

I was thinking two small output-connected transformers could do this, but don't they limit the power altogether across the output to 1kw? I have one of them transferring power from hydrogen generator + smart battery area onto another wire that has over 5kw wattage potential along with more power generation along that wire being connected to manual generators and some jumbo batteriesand I have never seen the wire break or overload. Then again I have not seen it strained either, so may be I am just never consuming enough power.

Either way, if the 4kw transfer in a large transformer is supposed to be going down from conductive heavy watt wire to regular heavy watt wire, then why is it only 4kw when the heavy watt wire could support up to 20kw? All that power that could be provided and yet wouldn't. And at the same time, the large transformer cannot be used for small conductive wires, because its output potential is DOUBLE the amount.

So, that taken into account, how am I ever supposed to properly take use of a large power transformer? And what point do I have in using conductive wire over regular wire? Is it just for a long-term replacement because of different resources they take up? What is the idea here? Something tells me either we need another transformer type or the possibility to adjust the transformer wattage flow. Small transformer could then may be adjusted to allow from 0w to 2kw or 4kw and the big one up to 20kw. But may be I am missing something rather obvious here?

[Hedning]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

'brownouts are bad' is over simplistic thinking

It's "over simplistic" because it's a freaking tldr summary.

I'm starting to think that you are just bad at the game. Thinking that you have to use exploits to progress, and that the game requiring you to think a single thought before adding a machine to a power network makes it "needlessly complicated".

You should be happy that any power transformer is limiting power at all. Irl they don't do that.

[Xilo The Odd]

Originally posted by Hedning:

Originally posted by Kaisha:

'brownouts are bad' is over simplistic thinking

It's "over simplistic" because it's a freaking tldr summary.

I'm starting to think that you are just bad at the game. Thinking that you have to use exploits to progress, and that the game requiring you to think a single thought before adding a machine to a power network makes it "needlessly complicated".

You should be happy that any power transformer is limiting power at all. Irl they don't do that.

shhhh dont bring irl into this... or else we'll start talking radiant heat in a vacuum and it'll get all sorts of bad in here xD.

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by Hedning:

I'm starting to think that you are just bad at the game. Thinking that you have to use exploits to progress, and that the game requiring you to think a single thought before adding a machine to a power network makes it "needlessly complicated".

Ahh here comes the typical 'git gud' 'ur too stoopid' comment. As predictable as ever. I guarantee you I know far more about the underlying simulation and mathematics than you do, and I've found far more bugs in it than you have.

But of course, you fumbled your way into space once on the easiest asteroid on easy setting, so 'everything's fine'... /facepalm

You should be happy that any power transformer is limiting power at all. Irl they don't do that.

You're joking right? You realize I'm a programmer who designs micro electronics in my spare time... Switch mode power supplies do have current and voltage limiters on them that's the whole point of power supplies. And the devices being built in ONI are clearly more than a simple transformer.

But back to ONI:
"and that the game requiring you to think a single thought before adding a machine to a power network"

Its not about a 'single thought' its that large circuits are more efficient in terms of total resource usage when brownouts are not a problem. This is mathematically trivial to prove. There is no loss of time or resources if the water sieve on your SPOM or bathroom loop 'brownout' if you have a water reservoir on the line (which you should in case you ever want to adjust/do maintenance). If your research stations go down once every 20 cycles nothing bad will, happen your researcher will go grab more dirt/water and resume where they left off. I can go over example after example where its more efficient to have a greater than 1k/2k (whichever wire you're running) circuit and limit it using a transformer. Less heat produced (due to fewer transformers) and less materials used.

[Hedning]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

I guarantee you I know far more about the underlying simulation and mathematics than you do, and I've found far more bugs in it than you have.

Quite possible. But you complain that you can't play without exploits, while I can. So what should I think about that?

Originally posted by Kaisha:

You realize I'm a programmer who designs micro electronics in my spare time

Yes, you have all the credentials, but it really doesn't seem to help you all that much.

Originally posted by Kaisha:

Switch mode power supplies do have current and voltage limiters

If you want to write fan fiction about the transformer then that's up to you. It's not canon.

Originally posted by Kaisha:

There is no loss of time or resources if the water sieve on your SPOM or bathroom loop 'brownout' if you have a water reservoir on the line

You may have missed this, but none of my examples of machines where brownouts were a problem included the water sieve. Imo I was pretty clear when I talked about it that not all machines care about losing power temporarily. Some do though.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for why wasting your researcher's time once every 20 cycles is more efficient than not doing that though.

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by Hedning:

Quite possible. But you complain that you can't play without exploits, while I can. So what should I think about that?

That your reading comprehension is atrocious. This is the 3rd time you've tried to assert that I am unable to complete or be successful at the game, is a sad strawman argument because you have nothing else to fall back on to. I've ignored it previously because its tangential to the OP, but you keep going back to it.

Bottom line, getting to space is not that hard. In fact once you've nailed food and O2 you can pretty much coast the rest of the game making all the mistakes you like because there's no real 'loss' condition. Its a sandbox game. The point of sandbox games is not to complete some challenge, its to play with all the toys. The problem is, as I've stated ad naseum, that the toys don't work.

Being disingenuous is not an argument...

Yes, you have all the credentials, but it really doesn't seem to help you all that much.

Again... you need to stop with this strawman.

If you want to write fan fiction about the transformer then that's up to you. It's not canon.

You're the one claiming things about real life. That was YOU that went off tangent. You're the one that's drawing parallels about power transformers in game versus in real life. For example, IRL simple AC transformers do not store any significant amount of power unlike the ONI transformers, hence they are not similar. So who's writing 'fan fiction' now?

You may have missed this, but none of my examples of machines where brownouts were a problem included the water sieve. Imo I was pretty clear when I talked about it that not all machines care about losing power temporarily. Some do though.

And yet despite this you still claimed that power limiting circuits is bad, that damaging wires is the preferred method, and then posted a picture of a MASSIVELY overloaded and yet not power limited circuit. You're talking in circles to try to save face. What you're suggesting is ridiculous. Repairing lines is worse than brownouts, especially when those lines run through hard to access places.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for why wasting your researcher's time once every 20 cycles is more efficient than not doing that though.

Because its far more efficient than having to run half way across the map to repair it after its overloaded. Its all more efficient than have 100s of small circuits for every tiny thing. Also, as I mentioned and you conveniently ignored, when the action fails due to a brown out, they almost always go do something they had to do anyways (like resupply dirt/water) and lose only a tiny amount of time, far less than had they had to repair the line. And brownouts happen rarely.

[L37]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

...
You're joking right? You realize I'm a programmer who designs micro electronics in my spare time... Switch mode power supplies do have current and voltage limiters on them that's the whole point of power supplies. And the devices being built in ONI are clearly more than a simple transformer.
...

You know that such statements are worth nothing on the internet, right?
In reality power supplies generally are designed to provide given voltage within set specifications. Current is mostly defined by how much power load is trying to draw (load resistance) and is not limited directly. However, for safety reasons, most power supplies also include overcurrent protection in different forms (with most simple and common being basic fuse) which is designed to shut everything off once certain "safe" limit is exceeded. Same might be true for overtemperature protection etc. But this are all optional parts of power supply in a sense that it will function normally without them, the only issue is it will have unfortunate tendency to catch fire in case of failure.
Basic transformer + diode bridge rectifier power supply (most common like ~30 years ago) will blow up just fine when overloaded, often in spectacular fashion.
There are different cases when current is held constant while voltage changes, like some modes of battery charging, but they are far less common.


"transformer" in ONI is just a migic "black box" though, there is no such device in reality and no point in comparing it to something real.
It would be nice to have fuse in ONI though, as it will prevent both wire damage and erratic behavior "transformers" display when overloaded.

[Xilo The Odd]

Originally posted by L37:

Originally posted by Kaisha:

...
You're joking right? You realize I'm a programmer who designs micro electronics in my spare time... Switch mode power supplies do have current and voltage limiters on them that's the whole point of power supplies. And the devices being built in ONI are clearly more than a simple transformer.
...

You know that such statements are worth nothing on the internet, right?
In reality power supplies generally are designed to provide given voltage within set specifications. Current is mostly defined by how much power load is trying to draw (load resistance) and is not limited directly. However, for safety reasons, most power supplies also include overcurrent protection in different forms (with most simple and common being basic fuse) which is designed to shut everything off once certain "safe" limit is exceeded. Same might be true for overtemperature protection etc. But this are all optional parts of power supply in a sense that it will function normally without them, the only issue is it will have unfortunate tendency to catch fire in case of failure.
Basic transformer + diode bridge rectifier power supply (most common like ~30 years ago) will blow up just fine when overloaded, often in spectacular fashion.
There are different cases when current is held constant while voltage changes, like some modes of battery charging, but they are far less common.


"transformer" in ONI is just a migic "black box" though, there is no such device in reality and no point in comparing it to something real.
It would be nice to have fuse in ONI though, as it will prevent both wire damage and erratic behavior "transformers" display when overloaded.

using automation gadgets wouldnt it be possible with a power shutoff to make a very basic Fuse system?

[L37]

Originally posted by Xilo The Odd:

using automation gadgets wouldnt it be possible with a power shutoff to make a very basic Fuse system?

Unless i am missing something the only way would be using smart battery after transformer to cut power off once it's charge is below 100%. Should be possible, should have fast enough reaction time to avoid damaging wires, but will still have a disadvantage of not producing notification.

If only we had load sensor for wires and alarm device which can produce notifications when enabled by automation... all the fun stuff we coud do with power circuits then, like shutting off pre-defined non-critical parts on overload while producing notification...

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by L37:

You know that such statements are worth nothing on the internet, right?

He brought it up, I didn't...

In reality power supplies generally are designed to provide given voltage within set specifications.

Well either the voltage is fixed (within an acceptable level of error/noise) and the current allowed to 'float' (in standard power supplies) or the current is fixed and the voltage 'floats' (in constant current supplies used in say LEDs).

Either way, in anything but the simplest power supply, over current and/or over voltage protection is common. Whether it be a fuse, a PTC, or internal temperature sensor, they all pretty much have it. Even the simple LM2577 has both current and thermal limiting. In fact I haven't seen a modern DC-DC IC (I mean the LM2577 is pretty old by electronics standards) that doesn't include some form of current/thermal limiting.

Basic transformer + diode bridge rectifier power supply (most common like ~30 years ago) will blow up just fine when overloaded, often in spectacular fashion.

The unregulated one's certainly, almost any regulated one will have protection though.

"transformer" in ONI is just a migic "black box" though, there is no such device in reality and no point in comparing it to something real.

Then QQ at the OP, not me. The ONI transformers clearly have some sort of energy storage beyond the transient currents stored in a real transformer, implying some sort of battery/super capacitor setup. This requires more than a mere transformer + diode but some sort of switched mode power supply and a charge controller of sorts. Course they also produce excess heat even when no power is used and have 100% efficiency so... yeah that 100% efficiency would be nice IRL.

It would be nice to have fuse in ONI though, as it will prevent both wire damage and erratic behavior "transformers" display when overloaded.

Apart from devices powering down, what other erratic behavior are you seeing?

[Hedning]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

This is the 3rd time you've tried to assert that I am unable to complete or be successful at the game, is a sad strawman argument

No, I said:
"you complain that you can't play without exploits".
This is referring to your opening in the other topic where you said:
"success in this game is more about learning weird bugs than utilizing the systems as presented".
Are you backtracking from that statement?

Also you can't have it both ways. If the game is easy without using glitches then you don't have to know about them. However you constantly use words like "need", "have to" and "essential" when talking about glitches. Maybe not so much in this topic, but in the other topic.

Originally posted by Kaisha:

And yet despite this you still claimed that power limiting circuits is bad, that damaging wires is the preferred method, and then posted a picture of a MASSIVELY overloaded and yet not power limited circuit. You're talking in circles to try to save face. What you're suggesting is ridiculous. Repairing lines is worse than brownouts, especially when those lines run through hard to access places.

Let me help you with your reading comprehention:
About brownouts and overloads I said: "Neither of which should happen."
Let me explain: Damaging wires is a way to find the error. It is not meant to happen. I build my circuits so that I never have to repair because my circuits never get overload damage. If they get overload damage I have made a mistake. I use the overload warning message to know that I did in fact make the mistake and then I fix it so that it doesn't happen again.

The "MASSIVELY overloaded" circuit in my picture is not overloading, as I said below the link.

Your idea that this is about either limiting the power of the circuit with small transformers or overloading the circuits is a false dichotomy. I am using a third way where I build the large transformer but then use experience and thinking to add lots of power consumers to it without overloading it.

[L37]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

Well either the voltage is fixed (within an acceptable level of error/noise) and the current allowed to 'float' (in standard power supplies) or the current is fixed and the voltage 'floats' (in constant current supplies used in say LEDs).

Either way, in anything but the simplest power supply, over current and/or over voltage protection is common. Whether it be a fuse, a PTC, or internal temperature sensor, they all pretty much have it. Even the simple LM2577 has both current and thermal limiting. In fact I haven't seen a modern DC-DC IC (I mean the LM2577 is pretty old by electronics standards) that doesn't include some form of current/thermal limiting.

Yeah, LED-s... probably most common application of constant current power supplies i totaly forgot about. For me somehow batteries were the first thing that came to mind.

I guess any IC will have protections like this merely because they are necessary in any practical device anyway, and integrating as much as possible stuff is whole point of IC.
It is still probably worth remembering that it is optional/separate circuit, just for sake of safety. It will not be there, for example, when tinkering with stuff and building something out of basic components.

Originally posted by Kaisha:

Then QQ at the OP, not me. The ONI transformers clearly have some sort of energy storage beyond the transient currents stored in a real transformer, implying some sort of battery/super capacitor setup. This requires more than a mere transformer + diode but some sort of switched mode power supply and a charge controller of sorts. Course they also produce excess heat even when no power is used and have 100% efficiency so... yeah that 100% efficiency would be nice IRL.

To be fair all batteries in ONI are more like capacitors with their unlimited charge/discharge rate. "Transformer" though... yes, it is also a perpetuum mobile of sorts too, with "free" heat generation. Not just 100% efficiency, but above 100% efficiency. (even in game it is probably possible to create power using nothing but "transformers" and steam turbine).

Originally posted by Kaisha:

Apart from devices powering down, what other erratic behavior are you seeing?

Well, random devices powering down for random intervals of time seem to be erratic enough for me. It's bad for almost anything. Interrupts dupe work in case of dupe-operated machines. Reduces output of things like pumps (which is bad in case you rely on it being predicatable for other things). May cause unpredicatable failures in case of timed automation... do not know, for me just a concept of stuff randomly turning on/off without me knowing feels bad. May be i am just approaching this from too serious/real life like angle...

There is a reason why most protections work by just shutting everything down in real life. There is no point in limiting current on constant voltage power supply because device trying to draw more power will not work anyway. On such PSU you have to make sure that consumer does not overload PSU (and possibly trigger a protection) yourself, i like to use the same logic in ONI.

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by Hedning:

No, I said:
"you complain that you can't play without exploits".
This is referring to your opening in the other topic where you said:
"success in this game is more about learning weird bugs than utilizing the systems as presented".
Are you backtracking from that statement?

You're projecting, you think that success in this game means the same for me as for you. I do not find getting to space hard, hence I don't see it as a good definition of success. As I've stated before, this is not a challenge game, its a sandbox game, hence success is playing with all the toys, making Seussian-like contraptions, and sadly watching them fail repeatedly because of obscure bugs or eratta. Your metal volcano for example is inefficient and not what I would consider a 'success'.

About brownouts and overloads I said: "Neither of which should happen."

We're talking about situations where one has to happen. When a line is overloaded either its limited by a transformer, or the wire is damaged. The magical third option where nothing ever goes wrong is ridiculous. 'Everything works cause everything works' is a wonderfully useless tautology.

The fact that you have a line with a 5k potential that hasn't yet been blown only shows that a) its poorly designed and will blow and b) you haven't used it to its potential yet...

I build my circuits so that I never have to repair because my circuits never get overload damage. If they get overload damage I have made a mistake. I use the overload warning message to know that I did in fact make the mistake and then I fix it so that it doesn't happen again.

This is utter nonsense. Dupes regularly do things in weird or odd orders, and micromanaging them is not only tedious but under many circumstances near impossible. If the line CAN overload it most likely will, and you'll either be current limiting or splitting the circuit. You initially suggested just splitting all the circuits, now you're backtracking and pretending that magically nothing can ever go wrong. At least when you suggested circuit splitting you had a logical argument somewhere in there...

Your idea that this is about either limiting the power of the circuit with small transformers or overloading the circuits is a false dichotomy. I am using a third way where I build the large transformer but then use experience and thinking to add lots of power consumers to it without overloading it.

Again... sheer nonsense. Short of MASSIVE dupe micro-management what you suggest is just a pipe dream. If I have 4 metal refineries on a line, only queueing up one at a time to 'not blow a circuit' is a complete waste, why build the rest if you'll only use 1. And if you'll only use 1, might as well just current limit it, if you're running multiple 5k circuits the extra 1kDTU/s is nothing, and you needn't worry about brownouts because your dupes never make a mistake.

Unfortunately my dupes, and I imagine every else's short of yours it seems, are complete morons and when given the chance will take every opportunity to fck up. If I have 5kW on a 2kW line I can be sure at some point they will try to use all 5kW at the same time.

... the mental gymnastics you're going through is exhausting to just watch...


Let me guess, you're next argument will be how in one small edge case an overloaded 5k circuit is fine because you've set up automation so that it won't happen, or hasn't happened yet... An edge case does not suffice. The OP was asking what the point of large transformers are, and outside of obscure edge cases, I've argued that there is none; so pointing out that there is an obscure edge case where they have some use, is only agreeing with me.

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by L37:

To be fair all batteries in ONI are more like capacitors with their unlimited charge/discharge rate. "Transformer" though... yes, it is also a perpetuum mobile of sorts too, with "free" heat generation. Not just 100% efficiency, but above 100% efficiency. (even in game it is probably possible to create power using nothing but "transformers" and steam turbine).

Yeah :) Lets see, at 1kDTU/s you'd need around 500 of them to equal the heat output of a aquatuner (about 500W through a steam turbine). So that's about 1W per transformer. You'd need a hell of a lot of steel :)

Originally posted by Kaisha:

Apart from devices powering down, what other erratic behavior are you seeing?

Well, random devices powering down for random intervals of time seem to be erratic enough for me. It's bad for almost anything. Interrupts dupe work in case of dupe-operated machines. Reduces output of things like pumps (which is bad in case you rely on it being predicatable for other things). May cause unpredicatable failures in case of timed automation... do not know, for me just a concept of stuff randomly turning on/off without me knowing feels bad. May be i am just approaching this from too serious/real life like angle...

There is a reason why most protections work by just shutting everything down in real life. There is no point in limiting current on constant voltage power supply because device trying to draw more power will not work anyway. On such PSU you have to make sure that consumer does not overload PSU (and possibly trigger a protection) yourself, i like to use the same logic in ONI. [/quote]

I certainly agree with some stuff. Like metal refineries (though I don't even run transformers to them but use heavy conductive wire and connect them directly to the main grid), glass refineries, bunker doors. But a lot of stuff is used sporadically and isn't crucial, particularly early game. I find it inefficient to build complex power systems that I'll just replace in 100 cycles in the off chance that a dupe might have to stop something 1/2 way through 'once in blue moon'. But I agree if the circuits were constantly shutting off non-stop, and not just a rare event, splitting the circuit makes more sense.


BTW and completely off topic. Have you ever ordered anything through JLCPCB? I've ordered PCBs through them before. They have a new SMT placement service, but the website is giving me problems. I'm still a pretty big noob on the electronics front :)

[Hedning]

If your definition of success includes using exploits then your statement is circular. You're basically saying that using exploits to their full potential requires you to use exploits. I agree with that statement however it is rather meaningless.

Also again, your statement about my metal volcano doesn't fit your description about needing exploits to be successful if all you would do to improve it is add a layer of petroleum to the bottom, which isn't an exploit. I have metal volcanoes with petroleum layers too. It's just that those two pictures were ones I already had uploaded.

Indeed I could probably add even more to that transformer, but then I would start risking overloads. I consider both brown outs and overloads to be worse than not utilizing the power line fully. If you have a double small transformer line that kicks your researcher once every 20 cycles and I have a line with a lower average load than your line, but doesn't kick the researcher I consider my line superior. Having a lower average load with no brown out or overloads is preferable to me.

It's not a pipe dream. Transformers just recently had power limiters on them. It used to be they acted like normal batteries, just with a charge limiter. This means I have always used them the way I am now. Hundreds, even thousands of cycles across my 854 hours on record. It may be a pipe dream for you, but it's proven technology for me. I wouldn't add 4 refineries to a line. I would add them to different lines. Like I said I add things after I think about what I can add. I don't add things willy-nilly. More realistically though if I have 4 refineries in the same place I would have them on a heavi watt wire.

What I definitely would never do though is add 4 refineries to a line supplied by two small transformers. That would be the truly horrific inefficiency with constant brownouts causing my dupes to walk back and forth.

[L37]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

I certainly agree with some stuff. Like metal refineries (though I don't even run transformers to them but use heavy conductive wire and connect them directly to the main grid), glass refineries, bunker doors. But a lot of stuff is used sporadically and isn't crucial, particularly early game. I find it inefficient to build complex power systems that I'll just replace in 100 cycles in the off chance that a dupe might have to stop something 1/2 way through 'once in blue moon'. But I agree if the circuits were constantly shutting off non-stop, and not just a rare event, splitting the circuit makes more sense.

I guess it is now possible to summarize whole argument:
Power systems in ONI have 2 failure modes when overloaded.

First one is straight overload without any limits. In this case random bits of wire get damaged but everything continues to function unless overload persists for long enough to actually break wires. In case when wire is broken it will separate the circuit at that point rendering all machines connected to separated part inoperable untill wire is repaired. Damaged/broken wires have to be repaired by dupes using small amount of metal. There are no other negative side effects (unlike in real life). Clickable notification will be generated for each instance of wire damage.

Second one - overloaded circuit is limited by transformer. There will be no wire damage and no repairs needed. Some random machines will "run out of power" and stop working for a short period of time. If overload persists for a long time random machines will be constantly switching on/off essentially being non-functional in case of being dupe-operated or will have greatly reduced performance. There will be no notifications apart from small icons on machines themselves for small periods of time.

There is also short "grace period" for wire damage (something that could be considered peak load), do not know how long it is but at least few seconds.

Whole argument is basically about which one of this "options" to choose. Neither of them is ideal, each has it's "+" and "-". I, honestly, would very much prefer having more real-life-like overcurrent protection that simply disables whole circuit and generates notification. Since that is not available i tend to go with overload/wire damage option, simply because of notifications. When i get one i know that i need to do something about it or i will have to repair wire damage from time to time. Key thing for me it that this way i know about the issue. But i totally can see how some people might prefer the other way.

Originally posted by Kaisha:

BTW and completely off topic. Have you ever ordered anything through JLCPCB? I've ordered PCBs through them before. They have a new SMT placement service, but the website is giving me problems. I'm still a pretty big noob on the electronics front :)

No, i did not. Since electronics are mostly just a hobby for me (i do have to do some soldering at work too from time to time, but nothing really complex) i tend to do my own circuit boards when i want to. They may be a bit ugly and much larger than those professionals can build with professional equipment, but this way i can fiddle with stuff as much as i want, break things, make them again, make small corrections etc. It is near-impossible to work with large IC-s this way (arm SOC or something of that order), but i've never actually tried to build stuff with them anyway.