Research: Too much work for too little gain.

[captaindefenestrator]

I've got 3 Experiment tables going and I'd still describe the research process as "glacial." My group has some decent weaponry, but after our first attempt on a Hell portal, we're sitting around waiting for the research to add up so we can figure out the ancient, forbidden secret of "Bringing Along A Seventh Guy" before trying again.

One thing that's definitely helped is killing all my neighbors. Again, they're nothing but a drain, and I got sick of all the "You almost have enough research to unlock something. Give it to us or we won't be your friends no more."

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

KILL 'EM ALL!!

[AmberGlowBug]

Agreed. Some really basic things, such rain water collecting or distilling, are far too down the list to make the cost in time worth it.

[captaindefenestrator]

And yes, tech advances SHOULD take time, however, the current system makes too much of the game into "Hurry Up And Wait." Meanwhile, the difficulty of the encounters keeps rising, and I'm expected to face hordes of Ghosts and Succubi with Crossbows and Improvised Armor.

Prime Example right here: I learned how to make the Coil Gun a while back. Finally managed to get hold of the copper and weapon parts, to find out "PSYCH! You need to generate three times more research than this to unlock the workbench to create this gun we told you that you'd be able to make five hours ago!"

At no point should I be playing a game and think it's saying "PSYCH," unless it's telling me the name of it's favorite Dule Hill show.

[captaindefenestrator]

Here's a thought: Since Research is something neighbors can come begging to us for, we should also be able to buy it from traders.

[AmberGlowBug]

We can buy research materials from traders VERY rarely, but that's 750 scrap due to ridiculous trader prices.

[captaindefenestrator]

Originally posted by OmniRusted:

We can buy research materials from traders VERY rarely, but that's 750 scrap due to ridiculous trader prices.

Rarely enough that I didn't even think it existed until you told me just now, it seems. Also seems as not worth it as the other way.

[captaindefenestrator]

Another example: What's that? You've almost got enough Occult Research for Extreme Crafting or Resource-Finding Spells? Time for Bad Omens! Give up all of it!

Yeah, there's "challenging," and then there's "complete pain in the ass."

[AmberGlowBug]

My favorite is, "Hey, we're that incredibly unhelpful settlement you introduced yourself to at the beginning of the game. Give us 200 research or else we'll attack you, because we hate you for no reason. Oh, and 50 medicine too, because anyone ever has that much medicine."

[captaindefenestrator]

Oh, I'm talking about the research points that you generate from Experiment Tables. I've got three up in my game right now, and a lot of the game is still ending up to be clock-watching.

[AmberGlowBug]

Yeah, so am I. The settlements sometimes demand Research points as a tribute.

[Uncle Gabseaz]

I agree, the research system needs to be revamped or at least scaled better in terms of time and reward.

If you try playing at the default highest dfficulty, the rate at which the enemies become stronger is horribly misproportioned to the rate for which you can manage to research and take care of everything else.

By the time Fallen Angels, Legions, and other highest tier demons arrive, chances are you've only just unlocked the mid-tier technology like glock pistols or coil guns.

Also, there are many other ways to address this such as :

1.) Being able to buy research points, like captain said

2.) Being able to loot research points, not just the books - "I heard the neighbors are hiding a sniper rifle or two. It is imperative that we get it, no matter what the cost."

3.) Dedicated vendors around the map, selling dedicated items - You can get the item of your choice from lowest to highest tier, for the right price. "I know you want to buy this sniper rifle right away, son, but you need to pay me at least 20,000 salads for that."

4.) Dedicated loot sites with dedicated items - "We can get an assault rifle from that place, but we need to kill those tons of demons and the big boss guarding it.

[AmberGlowBug]

Well that's default highest difficulty. It's supposed to be super hard. There's a huge problem with the game where "challenging" is too difficult while "forgiving" is laughably easy. It'd be nice if there was something in the middle. The idea for getting research and dedicated loot items would be incredible. It would also be incredible if military bases had something other than arrows in it for a change. I mean damn, give me a .38 or some gunpowder, a stab vest, some MRE's (honestly food is not that good of a loot item), a single use grenade really early in the game so I horde that thing like Final Fantasy Elixers. All that makes way more sense than ARROWS in a MILITARY BASE.

[captaindefenestrator]

Even on the lowest diffifuclty, a lot of it is just watching the overly-slow clock and WAITING for that distant, glorious day where you can figure out how to make an armored vest again.

[Franky]

I think part of the problem stems from there not being much research options in truth, which in turn stems from there not being enough items and things to build to begin with.

Some of the ideas proposed here, in particular, easily acquiring sniper rifles from neighbors or from a guaranteed mission strike me as insane. Why bother even reaching the top of the tech tree when i can acquire them far easier? This will make teching truly pointless. I mean the thread title is too much effort for too little gain, doesn't the idea of easily acquired sniper rifles work against this thread's premise?

If we had more item diversity, then some of your ideas might be more feasible but as it stands?
Im sorry but getting a sniper rifle is a big deal. There's only 2 of them (that i know of), and they are at the end of their tech tree.
It's like as if i could somehow find a guaranteed supply of final tier dark armor and volcanite bow.
Wtf would i ever bother raiding tough lava spots for the obsidian needed to craft those weapons when i can simply turtle up, produce tons of w/e ressource is profitable aat the time, and simply buy up late game weapons? There needs to be incentive to do those tough areas and triviliazing access to late tier goodies is not the answer and just rewards a passive playing style that is not in line with the games premise.

Tbh i feel the inclusion of vendors have really damaged this game in some ways. It was originally meant to be just a way to offload excess ressources but besides greatly destroying the feel of the game (it's hard to feel that we live in doomed post apocalypse setting with hell invading earth when our region is a trade hub full of merchants buzzing back and forth), but now people

Like i get, it, rimworld and most base building/colony sims have this, therefore this game must have it too. But it really detracts from the games theme imo. I really wish devs took the consumption of excess ressources in another direction entirely, it went from being a bandaid on a problem players were having (wat do with all my ressources?) to being a crutch where people want to use it as a shortcut to getting late tier gear and skipping the research process entirely, thus also making scavenving less rewarding by proxy (why go for the tough late game locations at all?).
Honestly now i think about it, i wish vendors were merged with neighbour camps. That would actually give an incentive for players to be on good terms with them.

Anyways going back to research... I definitly agree a lot of the topics are simply not worth it or feel very underwhelming, as if there wasn't enough research topics so some research got cut up in separate pieces to make it artificially longer.
If we had way more gear options to flesh out each topic and even introduce new topics, it would go some way to alleviating this problem imo and make for less of a radical shift when you move up a significant tier. Though this would in turn neccesitate fine tuning of both player and enemy progression and a general game rebalance.

Also i should add i play on normal difficulty so my experience derives purely from there. Harder difficulties are their own topic imo.

TLDR: Feel like there isn't enough gear and items in the game, needs moar.
Feel that research is artificially stretched out resulting in unexciting research topics.
Greatly disagree with other commenters here regarding the place of vendors and how they should facilitate the acquirement of high tier goods, making scavenging tough spots less rewarding.

[Uncle Gabseaz]

Bruh,

I didn't propose you can buy a sniper rifle right at the beginning. I'm proposing you can buy a sniper rifle if you had enough money or proportionate resources for it. No one has 20,000 salads in day 1, right? Actually, we can make it 100,000 salads if you like.

Whether its turtling up in your base or go out scavenging salads or whatever, it's up to the person, but he's never getting that rifle with just a snap of a finger.

There are military bases with just grenades and olympics bows on em. I'm sure some ♥♥♥♥ of a merchant must have took all the guns and is hoarding them. Well, unless the whole army just fought the demons with olympic bows, then yeah, I'd understand now why the humans are barely surviving now.

And I'm saying if you had to get a rfile or whatever high tier item from a neighbor, it certainly wouldn't be a cakewalk, you would have to fight the whole 15 or 30 of his family, wipe them from the world map.

Basically, the big boss of the neighbors you're invading is gonna use the sniper rifle against you while you're invading them, and you just have to pry it from his dead hands later if you win, tadah.

Also I don't think it would it defeat the purpose of researching because vendors are already in the game and you can buy items from them that you haven't even researched yet, but the way it works is very limited and one-sided. It's great if they would find a way to make this more interesting and dynamic, rather than just having the vendor rip you out of disproportionate prices and volume.