Pure Form: Is it Good?

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

So for all us Majin players one of the biggest questions isn't just why is the pure form just a static Kid Buu its also " is it any good " Well, i've deleted my Namek and started to fiddle around with the Pureform itself. So i'd like to take a few moments and discuss the form itself what it appears to do, and if its actually useful.

Purification
Effect: Statistically unknown, appears to boost offense, Drains Stamina for the duration. Does NOT prevent damage akin to Great Namek! Removes skill set for a static kid buu skill set.

Move Set: Unique Move set, which has an odd chargeable teleport kick, i honestly didn't see this land very often its really slow and not where that useful. While dashing, you roll into a ball and deal damage to anything that touches you. This is actually kind of useful! does ok damage and is a nice way to open people up to combos and follow ups if they aren't execting damage from your dash. Other then that pretty basic buu combos.

Move Set
1: Vanishing Ball: (ki blast)
2:Quick Sleep: fall asleep for a couple of seconds restoring around 3-5% of your hp bar
3: Max Charge(charges ki)
4:Pearl Flash (strike)
5:Super Vanishing Ball (ki Blast)
6: Teleport Vanishing Ball (ki Blast)

So the ultimate question becomes, even if we ignore the over all look being lazy, is the move any good? Well i can tell you compared to Kaioken and Great Namek its pretty poor transformation for a few reasons. I do not think damage wise it even comes CLOSE to being as high as SSJ or Great Namek, and move set's actual damage as a Ki blast focused character was at best ok, at worst actually LESS then my normal move set. I think that's a big problem with this move, when your built to do a specific set of attacks and combos suddenly losing that can be a straight up damage loss. I do think is a defense boost but its not enough to matter really,

All in all my impression was that this is probably not just worst asthetic transformation but also mechanically its kind of bad to. The gains don't justify the stamina drain, its asthetically kind of lazy, and while i get that Akira designed this, and i doubt it will ever get changed. Mechanically it feels really bad... like, i just lost all my damage and stamina bad. It just doesn't feel like i gained anything from this form, but lost everything.

Well the good news is Kaioken is looking super fun! and i can only hope Potential Unlocked is just as good, but its kind of depressing that the buu form was so poorly handled...

Disclaimer: These are my impressions after literally just a handful of hours with the game, and after testing great namek and loving it, and trying the Majin which i really like as a race. I can't say for sure with 100% clarity anything i said above is 100% true but it is my opinions after playing around with the pureform to some extent. Take everything above with a grain of salt.

[ImHelping]

AzureTheGamerKobold původně napsal:

As somone that uses both vanishing ball and super vanishing ball on my main in XV1 i can tell you they slapped a BIG fat nerf on both skills. They have MUCH lower accuracy and there damage wasn't even CLOSE to the 4x kamahamaha or giant storm. In terms of damage i was doing WAY more damage by spamming ki blast heavy(holding the attack in) and popping giant storm on the great apes. Super vanishingball at least(one that i used most) seems to miss alot more now and even when it hits it seems to have its damage output capped(alot of moves seem to now) and it wasn't nearly as high as giant storm. So any hopes that gaving those skills early on will be nice is offset by this seeming nerf.

That said sleep skill is kind of nice for between bouts if you took to much damage but aside from that the form was pretty crap.

While that is for the most part very informative, the fact teleport vanishing ball was never even mentioned, just "They nerfed two moves that had the highest damage"... Yeah. Even if unintentional, it's part of what has caused my mindset.

(For what it's worth, in Xeno 1, vanishing ball just misses CONSTANTLY for me, even against hardly moving AI.)

As for damage itself? It's a beta with limited content and many advantages locked until retail release.

While I do not doubt they got SOME nerfs, it's probably not a situation specficically unique to the damage of Vanishing ball, Super Vanishing ball alone being toned down (even ignoring the possibility that just maybe, people are not level 99 with the best QQ bangs that are not availible until retail release)

and... uh... What was that other attack? Kid Buu's only got the one ult right?

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Teleport Vanishing ball and Super Vanishing ball are his ults, and tele vanishingball tends to hit alot but it doesn't do even half the damage of suepr vanishing ball. Which is a sight better then it was in the first game, where it was like useless, outside of poking or getting in a quick hit. You are right that we dont have level 100 or all our stats but still... i was refering to the usefulness at low levels... also consider this! if 4x kamahamaha is this damaging at this level how much will it scale at high levels?

I rarely miss with super vanishingb all in XV1 in PvE at least, PvP was to unreliable to mess with in 1... so i never bothered.

[Ralen]

AzureTheGamerKobold původně napsal:

...

My mistake. I thought you mean ki. Regardless, it's the same issue. SSJ was worthless due to the ki drain and the terrible stat boost that was provided. No, infinite ki spam did not make up for how horribly implemented SSJ was in DBXV1.

It's a good thing SSJB isn't a CaC transformation. Regardless of what Goku said in Super, that's a moot point. We have seen SSJ1 and SSJ2 are fairly easy to maintain. SSJ3 is harder to maintain, but fights likely aren't going to last that long when someone is fully powered to SSJ3.

Goku and Gohan abandoned maintaining SSJ because Gohan discovered a new transformation: SSJ2.

I wouldn't really say other forms are "short lived." It depends on how you use them and your CaC's build. If you are a melee-oriented fighter stacking stamina, then kaioken, great namek, and even kid buu are going to be viable transformations if you know how to manage your stamina.

Until we actually have a statistical breakdown of each transformation, I'm going to assume the ones on timers have the largest stat boosts while the ones that are permanent are a smaller stat boost (largely to make up for the lower stats Saiyans and Frieza Race have in base form).

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Ralen Stargrazer původně napsal:

AzureTheGamerKobold původně napsal:

...

My mistake. I thought you mean ki. Regardless, it's the same issue. SSJ was worthless due to the ki drain and the terrible stat boost that was provided. No, infinite ki spam did not make up for how horribly implemented SSJ was in DBXV1.

It's a good thing SSJB isn't a CaC transformation. Regardless of what Goku said in Super, that's a moot point. We have seen SSJ1 and SSJ2 are fairly easy to maintain. SSJ3 is harder to maintain, but fights likely aren't going to last that long when someone is fully powered to SSJ3.

Goku and Gohan abandoned maintaining SSJ because Gohan discovered a new transformation: SSJ2.

I wouldn't really say other forms are "short lived." It depends on how you use them and your CaC's build. If you are a melee-oriented fighter stacking stamina, then kaioken, great namek, and even kid buu are going to be viable transformations if you know how to manage your stamina.

Until we actually have a statistical breakdown of each transformation, I'm going to assume the ones on timers have the largest stat boosts while the ones that are permanent are a smaller stat boost (largely to make up for the lower stats Saiyans and Frieza Race have in base form).

you aren't totally wrong untill we have endgame gear and items and see how things play out its impossible to say how those forms will work. However i havinga sneaking suspician great namek and pure form will not be used at all. Pure form is pretty crap as a whole do to removal of skills and generally speaking unless it gets some major buffs its never going to match SSJ or golden. As for Giant Namek its strength is its greatest weakness, while its got good damage and damage immunity(as damage goes to stamina) while in that form... your a massive target 1 good ult will drop it and no avoiding it in that stat additionally i found hitting things absurdly difficult as agiant namek! i loved the move and it was hilarious fighting the great apes as a giant namek! but i see it as more of a gimmick... maybe good in PvE but pvp it'd be sucide to use it.

Compare all of the other forms to golden and SSJ and you notice a running theme... its very easy to lose those forms, after short spurt they are done. They do over all less damage then SSJ3 and both replace your skills, and change your move sets. One makes you SUPER slow and other pretty much makes you useless... so what is the drawback to SSJ again? i'll admit Kaioken is amazing and i'm fine with slotting that but i have a sneaking feeling kaioken's boosting base damage more then anything else and not ki damage and strike damage...

Anyway i just feel like SSJ and Golden are to good for what they do with very little drawback... in pvp they can completely turn the tide of battle in seconds, and your penalty is pretty light... use a good knock back or stun and use max charge you can easily get a bar back...anyway i stand by my feelings on this. SSJ and Golden are just to effienct for what they give, and namek/ pure form are either a gimmick or not overly useful in a real battle...

I'll wait to see how meta turns out but i'm calling it now! =D saiyans and freeza clans will dominate! hopefully unlock potential is every bit as good as those so is at least something we can cling to! but yea i dun see people using great namek and pure form end game much...

Edit:

my point is you say draining stamina would make ssj useless but you seem to be ok with great namek and pure form to drain stamina... which they do... so why should great namek and pure form drain stamina but ssj and golden not drain stamina? if all forms are equal unless great namek and pure form are dealing a TON more damage or having a TON more viability which we know isn't true...

so basically what i'm saying is! either make all the forms equal in terms of how long they can be maintained, or you are making 2 forms statitsically better which atm is pretty much true... golden form and SSJ can easily break down great namek in seconds, and we already know pure form will be avoided for a varity of reaosns... why use anything but ssj or golden form? unless Kaioken can exceed ssj3 damage by a good amount its not gonna make up for its stamina drain...

[Skeithe079]

I watched somebody use Great Namekian in closed beta pvp. They actually did suprisingly well. You HAVE to keep the pressure on the other player so they dont just pop an Ultimate on you.

Plus if your smart you woulnt use it till your oppenent wastes an Ultimate.

Purifacation.......is just all around bad. I imagine most people are going to instead use Unlocked Potential or Kaioken.

My human is using one of those too. Didnt really need Transformations in XV1 for my Human, so Kaioken will just be a nice boon once in a while if I feel i really need it.

That being said hopefully it gets fixed before release, watch online somebody get owned due to that form not dropping when Stamina ran out.

Honestly XV1 when Kaioken dropped your Stamina was out but NOT broken. I hope they can do the same for the rest of the Stamina draining Transformations so they arent abused.

Stamina break sucks but after a Transformation, Stamina break means faster stamina than unbroken.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Skeithe079 původně napsal:

I watched somebody use Great Namekian in closed beta pvp. They actually did suprisingly well. You HAVE to keep the pressure on the other player so they dont just pop an Ultimate on you.

Plus if your smart you woulnt use it till your oppenent wastes an Ultimate.

Purifacation.......is just all around bad. I imagine most people are going to instead use Unlocked Potential or Kaioken.

My human is using one of those too. Didnt really need Transformations in XV1 for my Human, so Kaioken will just be a nice boon once in a while if I feel i really need it.

That being said hopefully it gets fixed before release, watch online somebody get owned due to that form not dropping when Stamina ran out.

Honestly XV1 when Kaioken dropped your Stamina was out but NOT broken. I hope they can do the same for the rest of the Stamina draining Transformations so they arent abused.

Stamina break sucks but after a Transformation, Stamina break means faster stamina than unbroken.

Is a Z-soul that regens your stamina stupid fast, i've been using it on all my characters its really rgeat!

As for the Kaioken i've been using it to death on my Namek and i love it! damage boost is nice i also feel like it makes you faster to, only got x3 but it was enough! and the drain isn't that bad. I have 4 stamina bars or 4.5 stamina bars and i was easily able to maintain it for a full battle with out it breaking as long as i wasn't force to snap vanish or got clobbered from behind by the AI. Now in a REAL fight of course, you'd have to be way more careful!

all in all its looking great! i just hope they do some tweaks between now and launch

[Skeithe079]

Did your Stamina break when Kaioken ran out on its own??? Because a Super Soul that regens Stamina stupid fast an all is fine but INSTANT Stamina break means guaranteed short wait for Stamina to quickly fill all the way up again and bam instant Transformation.

At least if the Stamina didnt break automatically after the Transformation ended, you'd either have to break your own Stamina for use a Super Soul to get it back faster/ or a Super ability that does it for you XV1 had that.

Its something simple and small but can make a huge meta difference.

[Slam Moment]

They really did do Buu very badly with their transformation. but hopefully theyll address some of it in time.

[GrandMajora]

Veya původně napsal:

GrandMajora původně napsal:

That means in DBO lore, every earthling player was part of either Goku or Vegeta's family tree. And considering it was only 200 years, I'm inclined to believe they just went sex crazy and started screwing everything in sight.

Wouldn't that just mean that every playable human is 5% Saiyan, not that the entire human race at large has that Saiyan DNA? it would certainly make it more beliaveable, plus, depending how society evolved in DBO, maybe having Saiyan DNA is extremelly prestigious, Saiyan-descendents would be swimming in puss, and women seeking artificial insemination would seek Saiyan-descendent donors since it would be a guarantee that their child would have greatly enhanced physical condition compared to a regular human, sure, in the real world, I would expect quite a bit of racism to crop around since people tend to suck like that, but if we are trying to be idealistic and ignore that sad realism, it could work.

Keep in mind this was an MMO with millions of human players and only 2 officially known saiyan bloodlines to work with. Also the fact that these weren't halfbreeds, or even quarter saiyans. They were 5% Saiyan and 95% human.

That means continuous mixed breeding in order to dilute the Saiyan DNA to that point. And in only 200 years, we went from 2 bloodlines, to an entire army of potential Super Saiyans running around earth. And as for strengthening the human race, or racism, I don't think you and I were watching the same series. The vast majority of earthlings have no idea Saiyans even exist, much less how powerful their potential children could be. During the events of DBZ, we saw that most of the world, including the martial arts community, had apparently forgotten Ki existed and believed it was some kind of trick.

I really don't think they're going to wake up one day and shout "We need to breed with space monkies!"


At least the Majin race origin is believeable, as Buu and his wife were using magic to mass produce their offspring. The Earthling story sounds like some shoddy attempt to give humans a transformation so they wouldn't feel left out from Nameks and Majins.

[Veya]

GrandMajora původně napsal:

And as for strengthening the human race, or racism, I don't think you and I were watching the same series. The vast majority of earthlings have no idea Saiyans even exist, much less how powerful their potential children could be. During the events of DBZ, we saw that most of the world, including the martial arts community, had apparently forgotten Ki existed and believed it was some kind of trick.

I really don't think they're going to wake up one day and shout "We need to breed with space monkies!"

The thing though, is that things changed a LOT after the end of Z in DBO canon, everyone started opening their own Martial Arts dojo to teach Ki techniques, to the point it became common knowledge, yeah, it was a forgotten art in DB and Z, but DBO intentionally set to change things around, which in turn could have made Saiyans common knowledge, since the stories of Goku's and Vegeta's exploits would be passed around.

Also, I was talking about the fact Saiyans are likely more physically attractive with the "swimming in puss" commend, look at Gohan, he didn't train at all for 7 years and he was still ripped at the start of the Buu saga, it makes a pretty clear indicator that Saiyan physiology allow them to stay in top physical form even without exerting themselves in any way(and all overweight Saiyans we have ever seen like the ones in Bardock's special an Onio were non-canon, so...).

It's less "we need to breed with space monkeys" and more "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, the space monkeys are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing..."

And to be perfectly fair, "5% Saiyan" is a bit too loose of a comment that either had very little thought put on, or wasn't meant to be taken serious at all, because genetics don't quite work like that, overall, as long as Saiyan genes are always dominant over equivalent human genes, the Saiyan characteristics would prevail at least 75% of time, and even if you ignore how genetics actually work and go by "halving the Saiyan heritage with each passing generation"... that also doesn't work, because it would go 100%>50%>25%>12.5%>6.25%>3.125%, skipping "5%" entirely.

[cowbell]

AzureTheGamerKobold původně napsal:

It drained Ki in the first game not stamina, most forms drain stamina even Goku explains in Super that SSGSS drains an enormous amount of stamina to maintain it. This is why he and Vegeta didn't use SSGSS in the god Tournament for ages, because it was pretty taxing and the same goes for SSJ, whole reason goku and gohan trained to STAY SSJ in cell saga was to lesson that strain to a point that it wasn't an issue. But it wasn't feesably possible to do it forever or for whatever reason they both abandoned it and we never saw that again.

I also doubt this will be changed, its simply my opinion, other forms in comparison are short lived while SSJ and Golden can be maintained for long peroids.

They also make you believe that you lose your potential after months of inactivity. Gohan didn't lose the potential he got from Guru, but lost almost everything he gained in his life after Buu.

Goku opted out of being perma SSJ because he was destroying stuff by touching them, like Beerus.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Skeithe079 původně napsal:

Did your Stamina break when Kaioken ran out on its own??? Because a Super Soul that regens Stamina stupid fast an all is fine but INSTANT Stamina break means guaranteed short wait for Stamina to quickly fill all the way up again and bam instant Transformation.

At least if the Stamina didnt break automatically after the Transformation ended, you'd either have to break your own Stamina for use a Super Soul to get it back faster/ or a Super ability that does it for you XV1 had that.

Its something simple and small but can make a huge meta difference.

Yea if you let it break on its own, you will be helpless... its same for anyform that drains stamina WHICH is why i say SSJ and Golden are SUPER powerful in comparison. Sure they slow your ki consumption BUT they do not leave you helpless at the end of a transformation...

[Ralen]

AzureTheGamerKobold původně napsal:

...

You don't know this until we actually have a stat breakdown. Again, folks said SSJ was amazing and OP in DBXV1 when it was trash. No, infinite ki did not make up for the trash stats and ridiculous ki drain SSJ had to deal with.

If Dimps made every transformation permanent, which would be incredibly stupid, then balance would be even worse. If the implementation is done properly, then the temporary transformations are statistically stronger than the permanent ones.

Again, saiyans and frieza race have lower stats than the other races in base form, so a permanent boost is not as unfair as you think. Ultimately, it won't be the transformations that win battles but the players actually using them and whether they are competent or not.

For the record, kaioken x20 was the most overpowered and broken transformation in DBXV1 and it had stamina drain. I know you believe that temporary transformations are somehow worse, but battles don't exactly last very long. A good player would know when and how to use kaioken (not at the very beginning of a battle if you have any sense).

[GrandMajora]

Ralen Stargrazer původně napsal:

AzureTheGamerKobold původně napsal:

...

You don't know this until we actually have a stat breakdown. Again, folks said SSJ was amazing and OP in DBXV1 when it was trash. No, infinite ki did not make up for the trash stats and ridiculous ki drain SSJ had to deal with.

If Dimps made every transformation permanent, which would be incredibly stupid, then balance would be even worse. If the implementation is done properly, then the temporary transformations are statistically stronger than the permanent ones.

Again, saiyans and frieza race have lower stats than the other races in base form, so a permanent boost is not as unfair as you think. Ultimately, it won't be the transformations that win battles but the players actually using them and whether they are competent or not.

For the record, kaioken x20 was the most overpowered and broken transformation in DBXV1 and it had stamina drain. I know you believe that temporary transformations are somehow worse, but battles don't exactly last very long. A good player would know when and how to use kaioken (not at the very beginning of a battle if you have any sense).

Making them permanent would not be stupid, because we have the ability to deactivate them as well. That's what "unlock Awakening" does, it causes you to revert your form. Though my guess is that title might just be a placeholder for something, as the name is rather confusing.

And as we've established, transformations don't give you infinite Ki anymore, but appear to make regaining Ki more difficult. So there's no unfair advantage to a permanent transformation.


If any transformation deserves to be permanent, it's the Earthlings, since unlike the other races, it's not even a real transformation. They riding a mount and using a weapon. That should cost absolutely nothing to maintain!


ANYWAYS: I've decided Purification is not worth it. It's neither mechanicaly nor aesthetically pleasing as a transformation. When I make a majin, I'm just going to give them Kaioken and Unlocked Potential. At least then I can keep the build and skills that I want.

[Ralen]

GrandMajora původně napsal:

...

Making Great Namek and Kaioken permanent would not be stupid? Okay buddy....

Flying Nimbus and Power Pole don't cost anything and the transformation is permanent... The catch is you can't take multiple hits. Have you been watching videos?