Giving the 2nd player a 3rd evolve point needlessly pushes aggro for no reason.

[Gujin]

Because unless you get the most absurd draws and opener to kill your opponent on turns 4 or 5, starting 2nd spawns such a tremendous advantage. Having that 3rd evolve point gives you so much power it isn't even funny. Sword able to develop an ealy Fencer, Dragon and Haven able to crush any sort of early board you have instantly while still having reserve evolve points. It's actually disadvantageous to NOT evolve on curve if you're going 2nd.

I like the mechanic, but both players should only have 2 evolve points to work with. Having 3 evolve points is just way too overbearing.

[Xuande]

I'm sure Cygames will do something (the change to +1 card going 2nd, and +1 hand size was pretty recent), but I don't think changing Evolve count is it. Cutting Evolve to 2+2 is diminishing Shadowverse's main mechanic to differenciate it from games like Hearthstone, and raising it to 3+3 would have a negative impact on the current Storm Spam meta.

Current balance is better than the previous 60% average winrate going first had. They'll get it right eventually.

[Rodi]

What were the advantages of going second when the balance was 60% winrate for players going first?
I am new to Shadowverse, but I feel that getting 2 cards on the first draw for the player who goes second is too much since they already get 3 evolve points and can evolve first...

[Sir Fluffykins]

I do prefer going second, but that definitely hasn't garenteed me any wins.

[Aurelli]

I don't see how it's pushing aggro. The most aggressive deck, bloodcraft bats is one of the few decks worse off going 2nd then first. The crafts with the biggest difference going second then first are the ones with the strongest evolve followers. Part of the problem is definately the strong evolution followers(especially the size 4 ones that can be played the turn evo becomes available) + having an additional evolution can add up to a huge advantage. Maybe scaling back the card advantage of going second and possibly nerfing followers like floral fencer and priest of the cudgel could help.

[Redsnowss]

http://shadowlog.com/s/trend/
http://syadoreco.com/metareports/
If you're interested in First Vs Second wins. I suggest using stats to back up your argument
Anyway, it was better than pre-DE, where going 1st had a tremendous advantage. Their goal is to try to balance the game at 50% winrate, give them time with new expansions. However, I do understand your pain as the disparity in Take-two IS EXTREMELY PAINFUL and is the entire reason why I don't play Take-two...

[Xuande]

That Arena disparity is overblown and comes down to people drafting poorly, then blaming the coinflip for not favoring their deck. If you roll first and curve out (1-drop optional), with at least some burst in your deck somewhere, very few Arena decks can answer that going second.

I've had so many 5-0 and 4-1 runs where I go first four or more times during the run.

[SilentCaay]

Except that the evolve system is equally useful (maybe even more so) for midrange and control. In control v aggro, control doesn't have to rely so heavily on perfectly drawing their anti-aggro within the first few turns and control evolve cards usually 3-for-1 very easily while aggro is just using their points for the +2/+2 buff. If the first player plays to their mana advantage they aren't pressured nearly as much to use their evo points in response to the second player.

I'm not saying there isn't a statistical disparity. I'm just saying that the evo system itself doesn't specifically favor aggro decks. I would also like to remind new players who weren't playing prior to the Steam release that before the patch that gave the second player an extra card, first player was statistically favored even with a 1 evo point disadvantage.

[Xuande]

Common Arena scenario:

First player plays a 2/2 on Turn 2. Second player plays a 2/2 as well on Turn 2. First player plays a 2/3 and goes face, knowing second player will make the trade for them. Second player trades and plays a 2/3 or 3/2. First player then plays two 2-drops, or any 4 mana play that isn't vulunerable to an Evolve play, and then likely goes face unless their play needed protection. Second player makes their Evolve play, which will 2-for-1 a good portion of the time, though not always. At this point first player has gotten around six face damage for "free", both players have two Evolve points left, and both players have a follower on board. Second player, meanwhile, likely has 1-2 cards of card advantage, but will still have to fight hard to win board control and react to first player's Evolves/removal.

Now, imagine how much more first player accomplishes in the above scenario if they managed to fit a 1-drop into that curve. It could keep hitting face for several turns since second player has too many other threats to answer, or alternatively open up some profitable trades when second player spends a turn answering it instead of making an even trade. This doesn't work both ways, though - if second player opens Goblin and first player plays a 2/2 on Turn 2, the Goblin just trades itself for saving two face damage, provided second player doesn't have direct removal or Ward on Turn 2.

Generally speaking, decks that want to go first include Aggro/Storm decks, plus players who are facing those decks. You don't have control over whether you face those decks, but you do have control in the draft when it comes to drafting those styles, and control over how well you can answer those deck styles yourself.

[Kae Tokiha]

While i do think the game still needs more balance in this aspect, going first is not always bad, i just depen on you deck and your opponent.

If you are playing a slow deck vs a fast deck, you may want to go fits otherwise you may lose the game without being able to do anything. Sword, Forest and Blood car ben very fast and deadly if they have a good draw.

I hope the devs can come up with a good solution to this. There will always have decks that prefer to go first and others will prefer go second, but as long as they don't have too much advantages it's ok.

[Gujin]

Aeliri původně napsal:

I don't see how it's pushing aggro. The most aggressive deck, bloodcraft bats is one of the few decks worse off going 2nd then first. The crafts with the biggest difference going second then first are the ones with the strongest evolve followers. Part of the problem is definately the strong evolution followers(especially the size 4 ones that can be played the turn evo becomes available) + having an additional evolution can add up to a huge advantage. Maybe scaling back the card advantage of going second and possibly nerfing followers like floral fencer and priest of the cudgel could help.

It pushes aggro because playing midrange doesn't serve a purpose because the player going 2nd is at such a huge advantage.

[Yuumi]

This is only a problem in take-two, 2nd player should not be given extra card.

In constructed going first can be a big advantage for some decks.

[Credne]

Xuande původně napsal:

That Arena disparity is overblown and comes down to people drafting poorly, then blaming the coinflip for not favoring their deck. If you roll first and curve out (1-drop optional), with at least some burst in your deck somewhere, very few Arena decks can answer that going second.

I've had so many 5-0 and 4-1 runs where I go first four or more times during the run.

The deck draft itself is a coinflip, dude.

[Repliku]

If you listen to some people here, you can't have skill in a game with a random component.

Is poker about coinflips as well ?

[AdderTude]

Personally, I hate going first no matter what because I get only two EPs. The odds aren't really stacked in your favor going first. I've actually lost more times whenever I was dealt "1st". Every time I'm dealt to start, I always assume I'm gonna lose.

[ICStars77]

Repliku původně napsal:

If you listen to some people here, you can't have skill in a game with a random component.

Is poker about coinflips as well ?

The big difference with poker is bluffing. Here there's no real "Random" element other than what's in hand but that doesn't really mean much. Heck even in something like yugioh with trap cards you could bluff your way to a win sometimes, but a game like this is either you have the cards you need or you don't (which in part comes down to skill in making a deck). Poker however, you could have a useless start 2 cards but play the pot/players correctly and still win the pot by knowing when to call/raise/ect and make it seem like you good hand. Lot more than simple luck in poker, which in a lot of ways is true for this or any card game.