Shadowverse

Shadowverse

Damacon 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 7:19
Storm mechanic (Charge in HS)
Can someone explain why the ♥♥♥♥ every CCG game implements this broken ♥♥♥♥? It is completely anti-strategic and anti-fun.
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正在显示第 1 - 15 条,共 23 条留言
myhr2 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 7:52 
Good question. Rush was an interesting take on the matter, but Cygames seems to have kinda abandonned it.
Damacon 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 7:57 
Rush I can understand, it sucks that it break normal rules but OK at least there is time to react. Getting raped instantly is beyond stupid.

Wards don't help either since there is plenty of removal available and you can't ALWAYS have another ward in hand.
Emberfogó Freeman 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 8:25 
It basically makes the game faster. It's a different mechanic, yes, which is all about prevention, but in a sense it's just like any other mechanic, as in it requires you to adapt to it. I'm not fond of storm either, since sometimes people use storm cards recklessly and just go face without thinking, but usually it does need at least a little bit of thinking (at least beforehand).

Instant face damage is part of every card game (afaik), so you better get used to it. And saying that "wards don't help" because they get removed shows exactly the point of the game: it's a game of action-reaction(and that means prevention too). The whole game is about control and you can't win with storm followers only - you need to build a good enough deck that allows you to "waste" a turn going face. Honestly, I have more problems with copypasta decks, since a mechanic has to be used well, but basically anyone can copy a deck and then win. I mean come on, at least put some thought into it!
TheKeviKs 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 8:29 
Storm is stupid in Shadowverse because of evolution. Storm followers need to have some restriction, like bad stats or other things, but in Shadowverse, all the class followers with storm got broken stats OR broken effect (except imp lancer I guess).

The other problem is the follow: They print TOO MANY storm cards. Come on they printed more Storm than Ward cards, really Cygame?
Storm cards in amulet, with huge attack/health, even with some crazy ability (Albert or Forte)

Rush is not a problem, it's a good defensive tools.
Storm in Shadowverse is stupid, but Cygame don't care because they don't want game that last more than 8 minutes, this is why they print so many storm or anti-control cards (welcome Seraph or Aegis or D-Shift...)

Charge in Hearthstone come with huge backside (like the new charge cards they printed), Shadowverse don't put limits, they print cards, put the "storm" word and repeat 15 times by expansion.
Emberfogó Freeman 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 8:43 
引用自 TheKeviKs
Storm is stupid in Shadowverse because of evolution. Storm followers need to have some restriction, like bad stats or other things, but in Shadowverse, all the class followers with storm got broken stats OR broken effect (except imp lancer I guess).

The other problem is the follow: They print TOO MANY storm cards. Come on they printed more Storm than Ward cards, really Cygame?
Storm cards in amulet, with huge attack/health, even with some crazy ability (Albert or Forte)

Rush is not a problem, it's a good defensive tools.
Storm in Shadowverse is stupid, but Cygame don't care because they don't want game that last more than 8 minutes, this is why they print so many storm or anti-control cards (welcome Seraph or Aegis or D-Shift...)

Charge in Hearthstone come with huge backside (like the new charge cards they printed), Shadowverse don't put limits, they print cards, put the "storm" word and repeat 15 times by expansion.

Please remind me of the storm cards in Tempest - I can think only of Zeus and Zell's storm mechanic that are actually usable. Maybe Dragon Scyther. What else?

Also, in most cases storm is not broken at all (3pp 2/2 etc.). The problem seems to be that there are too many legendary storm followers, but storm as a mechanic is not op imo. It can irritate you of course, but that could be said about any other mechanic too.
Damacon 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 9:07 
Storm is insanely overpowered, what are you talking about?

The whole game is designed around summoning sickness that can be overcome (only vs minions!) by spending precious upgrade points.

... and there are storm minions which not only have it for free, but they can go FACE immediately.

Meaning, you need to be clairvoyant (so you know when to put down a ward) OR have entire deck full of wards and spam them nonstop if you want to have anything resembling a STRATEGICAL game.

Storm abuse means that quality of play is meaningless - because taking ANY small amount of chip damage brings you into INSTANT KILL range even if you played perfectly with a solid deck. This ♥♥♥♥ is killing HS quickly (don't believe official Blizz statements) and it will kill SV too.
Laeradr 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 9:25 
storm minions lose stats to make up for their mechanic and thats where storm is balanced in some way (there are quite powerful stormfollowers, but the mechanic itself is fine). so if you play a stormfollower and go face and your opponent reacts with a rushfollower (rushs a cheaper mechanic so they have better stats on average) or an evolve play, he will have boardcontrol and you have to answer his follower + play a new one to maintain tempo. if you do this again and hes able to answer your stuff, youre gonna lose on the mid-long run. thats how control vs storm/charge/whatever aggro matchups typically play out and thats how it is in most ccgs.
hearthstones problem (piratewarrior) isnt created by charge minions, its mainly because the addition of weapons generates a "charge" dmg source which cant be dealt with (or only with tech-cards) and patches gives them the early "small body" advantage they need to maintain boardcontrol without trading all the time - then, and only then, charge minions come into play to finish the job.
i do understand the antipathy for fast mechanics (i myself prefer heavy control matchups), but its not broken at all and you cant compare the state of shadowverse with hearthstone in that regard.
最后由 Laeradr 编辑于; 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 9:25
Bishop 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 9:26 
Storm by itself is not a problem. Busted, overstated and broken cards like Zell and Albert are.
TheKeviKs 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 9:38 

Please remind me of the storm cards in Tempest - I can think only of Zeus and Zell's storm mechanic that are actually usable. Maybe Dragon Scyther. What else?

Also, in most cases storm is not broken at all (3pp 2/2 etc.). The problem seems to be that there are too many legendary storm followers, but storm as a mechanic is not op imo. It can irritate you of course, but that could be said about any other mechanic too.

Well, I guess that all the storm cards of Tempest doesn't see play because Dragon and Shadow take all the place, you don't see the new forest one or blood or even rune with Earth rite.

Maybe I talk too fast, so my point was not clear enough. I hate storm in Shadowverse because all storm followers become a pain in the ass due to evolution, the "storm" mechanics is needed in all game, but come on, in Shadowverse the cards with storm are really annoying and you can't do a lot. I don't always have 6 wards in my hand x)

Ho and the fact that this little piece of **** named Zell become 9 pp baha storm in face, yeah FUN, I like taking 13 damages when I got 20 Hp
最后由 TheKeviKs 编辑于; 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 9:40
Emberfogó Freeman 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 10:22 
引用自 TheKeviKs

Well, I guess that all the storm cards of Tempest doesn't see play because Dragon and Shadow take all the place, you don't see the new forest one or blood or even rune with Earth rite.

Maybe I talk too fast, so my point was not clear enough. I hate storm in Shadowverse because all storm followers become a pain in the ass due to evolution, the "storm" mechanics is needed in all game, but come on, in Shadowverse the cards with storm are really annoying and you can't do a lot. I don't always have 6 wards in my hand x)

Ho and the fact that this little piece of **** named Zell become 9 pp baha storm in face, yeah FUN, I like taking 13 damages when I got 20 Hp

Oh I forgot about Jungle George there for a minute, thanks for reminding me. I found Soul Dominator to be quite fun though - not busted but fun. Anyway, thanks for reminding me.

And yeah, I see your point about storm being strong due to evo points, but an evo point is always a sacrifice and if you clear the board while they used up all (or at least some) evo points, then there's a good chance you'll gain control of the game, since they won't be able to react to your cards.

I think every mechanic will lose from its uniqueness after a while, since there will be more Bane, Rush, Storm etc. cards. The most obvious this is is in the case of Grimnir. That card became the single best ward in the game, thus the efficiency of ward followers went up. The same happened to storm with Albert. I guess what I'm saying is storm is not op in itself, but there are storm followers that are. (I won't get into elaborating how storm needs a competent deck too again.)

Hopefully these cards will be "dealt with" in the next expansion - the last meta was way more healthy than the current one, and I think it was good enough to be called balanced - I remember playing against all kinds of decks from all kinds of crafts. Even though the problem right now is not even storm, but mainly dragon and shadow (I didn't see too many Zells while climbing through AA3 and I didn't see him at all since I got to Master, so I guess the combo is just not that easy to pull off).
myhr2 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 1:09 
Well, you can say that Storm is not OP, but following the way Cygames seem to balance their cards, an ability is roughly 1 PP worth. The problem is that, arguably, Storm should be worth more than 1 PP, since other abilities like Rush and Ward (especially Rush) already cost 1 PP. The fact is, a follower with Storm can damage face or minions, which is already a flexible effect, and after hitting face, it leaves a body that has to be dealt with. There is a way to balance this, but the current state of the game is...concerning. As further proof of the problem, see how many Rush cards have been printed in TotG and how many are played : not many, and exactly one (since it's Eachtar and the card is OP as hell)
Emberfogó Freeman 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 1:44 
引用自 myhr2
Well, you can say that Storm is not OP, but following the way Cygames seem to balance their cards, an ability is roughly 1 PP worth. The problem is that, arguably, Storm should be worth more than 1 PP, since other abilities like Rush and Ward (especially Rush) already cost 1 PP. The fact is, a follower with Storm can damage face or minions, which is already a flexible effect, and after hitting face, it leaves a body that has to be dealt with. There is a way to balance this, but the current state of the game is...concerning. As further proof of the problem, see how many Rush cards have been printed in TotG and how many are played : not many, and exactly one (since it's Eachtar and the card is OP as hell)
I hope so too, that Cygames would reduce the amount of storm followers in the next expansion. However, I don't think that nerf should be applied to all storm cards (who would play a 4pp 2/2 that's stopped by a 3pp ward which doesn't even die to it?). Players should be able to more easily deal with some storm followers though, but as long as Cygames doesn't continue to make so many strong storm followers, it should be fine. I think the main problem is Zell, and that card should definitely cost 1 more or have lower stats. I do prefer rush to most storm followers though.
最后由 Emberfogó Freeman 编辑于; 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 1:46
Damacon 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 2:07 
Actually in Dragon the problem is that there are too many fantastic answers to everything. But storm mechanic is the core issue.
Democracy Enjoyer 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 2:46 
you can play a control deck perfectly
and then get twenty-to-zeroed by 3 consecutive alberts
♥♥♥♥ storm
it isnt even the problem that storm is op (im not assuming it is btw), the problem is how frustrating and tilting it is to lose to this kind of ♥♥♥♥
最后由 Democracy Enjoyer 编辑于; 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 2:48
SilentCaay 2017 年 5 月 20 日 下午 2:55 
引用自 Damacon
Actually in Dragon the problem is that there are too many fantastic answers to everything. But storm mechanic is the core issue.
I would call healing the core issue. The only reason Dragon can ramp with reckless abandon is because all of their cards have free healing attached. Most of their Storm threats aren't anything special when played on-curve without ramping. If you took the heals off of Fervor, Sybil and Ouroboros, Dragon would not be nearly as threatening even with Zell combos.
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发帖日期: 2017 年 5 月 20 日 上午 7:19
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