Kind of disappointing...

[thebugmancometh]

As it happens, I -like- VN's, but from the little gameplay I saw via YT I didn't think this would be a 100% linear story (stopped watching because it looked good and I didn't want to spoil it for myself).

With this much effort put into the game (and I admit it was a LOT, okay...it's a very well-done VN!), I would have expected at least some ability to influence conversations via choices, even if they made no difference to the ending of the game.

I guess that's what disappointed me the most....the fact that I felt trapped into a role, saying things I wouldn't have necessarily said, etc.

As an aside...I think the gay / bi thing was a bit heavy-handed. I get it...it's the future...it's normal (it's what we are striving for now, right? Acceptance?) But FFS...you literally shoved it down the player's throat every chance you got. I was actually -more- accepting of it at first than I was after the 50th time someone made a point of saying they were queer or bi.

There's making a point...and then there's beating your audience over the head with a book.

I haven't reviewed this game officially yet, but tentatively, I'd only give it maybe 3/5 stars. The story that it HAD was good, and the characters were immersive, but I wish the PLAYER had at least -some- say in the story, even if it was fleeting, and I think the Tumblr-esqe social-justice issues of gender and sexual-identity were simply too heavy-handed and overdone.

[thebugmancometh]

Originally posted by CC:

*snip*

First of all....Happy New Year to you as well! :p

(Back to the game)

I wasn't -offended- by anything in it, least of all the sexual-identities of the characters. What I took issue with was how OFTEN they brought it up, as if the player needed reminding....just in case they forgot.

It's obvious the Dev had some kind of hatchet to bury here.

Otherwise, I found it very enjoyable, even after I realized all I'd be doing was reading and clicking the mouse every 5 seconds to forward the text.

I said I liked VN's, and that's true, but I definitely prefer the ones that have branching choices, which is pretty much standard in the higher-quality examples, and is what I have experience with. I want at least a modicum of interaction, and for me, the "drink-mixing" in this game wasn't enough. It was at best a distraction and at worst, an annoyance. I didn't mess up a single drink through the entire playthrough, and it wasn't -difficult-.

For the price, and the presentation, I was expecting more, is all.

[Space]

Happy New Year everyone!

I just finished the game too and I really enjoyed it, although there was close to no "gameplay" in a sense. This was my second ever VN, so I can't tell a good one from a bad one. However - I do like to do some reading on games I just finished and found out that there are branching choices. From what I read the choices are made through the drinks you serve.

I admit, that's very subtle but it makes me want to play it again, maybe with a guide on hand, just to read the other endings.

[Metadragon]

You weren't playing as a yourself or a blank slate. As VNs often do. You were playing Julienne Stingray. The game lets you influence the story a bit and you can make or break some of the other characters but it was telling a story which you got to be apart of. Jill is her own distinct character and acts like one. You just happen to see the story from her view.

Its not quite a kinetic novel as you can influence the story. It just doesnt veer off wildly like other VNs, especially the smutty ones or the ones where thats the point like the Zero Escape VNs.

But It very much was a visual novel. It just didn't pander to the audience. In that regard it acted more normal novel than anything.

[Link]

I just finished playing, and I'd argue that you DO have input in the story/game, but not via dialogue choices but by drink choices. All those drinks with optional alcohol will change dialogue if you get a patron significantly drunk enough (or alternatively you serve them a soft drink when they ask for a hard drink, like with Ingram.)

Although, my biggest gripe with the game is that for the most part you have to not play "perfectly" in order to affect the story and world. If you just do what people tell you and/or do what you need to do to get endings/achievements, the story is very linear.


I found the sexuality interesting in this game, because while it may seem "in your face" it also seemed realistic? I mean, let's break it down...

Dana & Jill = Bisexual
Lenore & Betty = Lesbian
Alma & Donovan & Gil = Straight
Mario = Gay
Dorothy & Dean = Uhh... can Lilim be labeled? If so, Dorothy is Bi and Dean is Straight
Stella, Sei, Virgillio, & Kiri Mika = Not sure if any of them ever talked about relationships.

I'm sure there's others but I can't think of them off the top of my head. I'd say that's a pretty fair and diverse mix and things never seemed to be out of character and/or heavy handed to me at least.

[Metadragon]

Originally posted by Link:

Stella, Sei, Virgillio, & Kiri Mika = Not sure if any of them ever talked about relationships.

I'm sure there's others but I can't think of them off the top of my head. I'd say that's a pretty fair and diverse mix and things never seemed to be out of character and/or heavy handed to me at least.

Kira Miki is straight. She says she is in a relationship with her agent.

Stella and Sei dont say much like that. Their relationship is somewhere between heterosexual life partners and maybe some implied attraction.

Betty might also be bisexual but its not too clear. She gets extremely jealous and panicky when she thinks Dean is going to leave her.

Anyway if you don't think Dorothy is heavy handed then what is heavy handed to you? The mere fact that she goes on at length describing a Mega Santa Gangbang and other wonderful things like having a client that had his balls altered so they could be removable so he could live out his castration fetish seems pretty heavy handed to me.

[Link]

Originally posted by Metadragon:

Anyway if you don't think Dorothy is heavy handed then what is heavy handed to you? The mere fact that she goes on at length describing a Mega Santa Gangbang and other wonderful things like having a client that had his balls altered so they could be removable so he could live out his castration fetish seems pretty heavy handed to me.

I meant "Social Justice" heavy handed like the OP was talking about, haha. Although you could argue that Dorothy being a sex worker that's viewed in a positive light to also be "Social Justice"-y, but I don't think that's what the OP was referring to.

[Metadragon]

Originally posted by Link:

Originally posted by Metadragon:

Anyway if you don't think Dorothy is heavy handed then what is heavy handed to you? The mere fact that she goes on at length describing a Mega Santa Gangbang and other wonderful things like having a client that had his balls altered so they could be removable so he could live out his castration fetish seems pretty heavy handed to me.

I meant "Social Justice" heavy handed like the OP was talking about, haha. Although you could argue that Dorothy being a sex worker that's viewed in a positive light to also be "Social Justice"-y, but I don't think that's what the OP was referring to.

I think a lot of the writing was means to talk about issues in a corrupt society and how you have to find friends and love desoite that to keep your head afloat.

I'm a avid opponent of social justice and its practitioners as they equate social identity for individualism. This game however makes it abundantly clear that their sexual orientation has virtually no bearing on their actual personality.

Switch the sexualities of any person in the game and their personality/individualism remains wholly intact.

Thats an important distinction in my eyes. Nothing is gained or lost if Alma turns lesbian or Dean turns gay.

The only notable exception to this is Mario. Whose arc is about his being comfortable in his gender role more than about his sexuality. The game makes it clear that the other characters and society as a whole actually dont care and that he shpyld do what he wants to do.

[Link]

Originally posted by Metadragon:

comfortable in his gender role

I'd say it's less gender related and more related to him being a Biker and what people expect Bikers to look and act like. Similar but more so career/hobby related than sexuality/gender related I think.

[thebugmancometh]

Originally posted by Link:

Originally posted by Metadragon:

comfortable in his gender role

I'd say it's less gender related and more related to him being a Biker and what people expect Bikers to look and act like. Similar but more so career/hobby related than sexuality/gender related I think.

Same but different. He thought he was supposed to be a "manly man". Definitely a gender-role, it was just exaggerated because he -was- a biker.

At any rate, this is a pretty good convo so far, keep it coming. Really enjoy seeing all your different opinions.

For clarity, I think Metadragon hit pretty close. Yes, you could switch their sexual preferences around and for the most part, it would make no difference.

What I originally took issue with was why they had to keep bringing it up, over and over, (the same characters, I mean). It was almost like, "Hey player, did you forget that I was a lesbian? Well just in case, let me mention it for the third time, to make sure I grab your attention for a second."

[Metadragon]

Originally posted by thebugmancometh:

Originally posted by Link:

I'd say it's less gender related and more related to him being a Biker and what people expect Bikers to look and act like. Similar but more so career/hobby related than sexuality/gender related I think.

Same but different. He thought he was supposed to be a "manly man". Definitely a gender-role, it was just exaggerated because he -was- a biker.

At any rate, this is a pretty good convo so far, keep it coming. Really enjoy seeing all your different opinions.

For clarity, I think Metadragon hit pretty close. Yes, you could switch their sexual preferences around and for the most part, it would make no difference.

What I originally took issue with was why they had to keep bringing it up, over and over, (the same characters, I mean). It was almost like, "Hey player, did you forget that I was a lesbian? Well just in case, let me mention it for the third time, to make sure I grab your attention for a second."

Well they vring it up because its relevant to their character. Alma beatrice goes through girls like crazy. Dorothy is a prostitute. Alma cant find a man that lives to her standards. Jill is left reeling from her past girfriend. Gil actually opems up to an offscreen girl and gets laid and happy. I mean they bring it up because love and lust are a fact if life. Its only a bit jarring because its not the type of love you expect it to be.

[Shuno]

Originally posted by JCTed:

Personally i didn't find the lgbt characters talk about their love/sexual life any diffrent what the straight characters said about theirs, or i dare to say, from what a straight person would talk about it in real life. Found it natural, mainly because all the characters had their own personality outside their sexuality.

I actually liked most of the characters because of that. Sure, it was strange how they mentioned their sexuality in the dialogue, it felt forced. But it was okay, since their personality was great. It was weird with Dorothy at first, for example, but then it became apparent that with her character it's just normal for her. The fact that she never tried to flirt with Jill before the game events was odd though.

But there was one exception. Jill. Her entire character is just her being lesbian. Seriously.
Maybe it just pissed me off because her dead lesbian girlfriend problems completely messed up the later half of the game.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Given how uncommon LGBT+ characters are in video games, any attempt to represent them in a respectful, non-stereotypical manner is bound to be viewed as "forced" and "heavy-handed".

It is an obnoxious double standard, since you do not see people reacting in such manner to openly heterosexual characters, which are omnipresent in gaming. We do not hear anyone complain about, say, Duke Nukem shoving his heterosexuality down our throats, do we?

[Metadragon]

Originally posted by JohnnyTheWolf:

Given how uncommon LGBT+ characters are in video games, any attempt to represent them in a respectful, non-stereotypical manner is bound to be viewed as "forced" and "heavy-handed".

It is an obnoxious double standard, since you do not see people reacting in such manner to openly heterosexual characters, which are omnipresent in gaming. We do not hear anyone complain about, say, Duke Nukem shoving his heterosexuality down our throats, do we?

You obviously werent paying attention to news and reviews about him then.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

The Duke Nukem franchise is frequently criticised - rightfully so - for being misogynistic, NOT for starring an openly heterosexual protagonist. Again, I doubt anyone has ever complained about the game shoving his heterosexuality down our throats; quite the contrary, as the character's obsession with women is seen as part of his appeal.

[Metadragon]

Originally posted by JohnnyTheWolf:

The Duke Nukem franchise is frequently criticised - rightfully so - for being misogynistic, NOT for starring an openly heterosexual protagonist. Again, I doubt anyone has ever complained about the game shoving his heterosexuality down our throats; quite the contrary, as the character's obsession with women is seen as part of his appeal.

Youve obviously never slapped those "odd silicone based lifeforms"... anyway misogyny isnt nessesarily an extension getoerosexuality but Duke's and the players heterosexuality is on display here, just happens to be in a misogynisitc way. Im sure lesbians may get a kick out of it too if they arent uptight feminazis.

But no offence but you seem to uave blinders on. Dont live in an echo chamber, its the worse thing anyone can do to themselves