Vulkan or OpenGL

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

This is more of a technical question about what API TF going to use.

I hope they upgraded to Vulkan, as it can save much needed performance from the CPU for other related tasks to run the game or are we stuck with the ancient OpenGL?

[Gwinda]

I guess it basically depends on how old hardware you want to support.
It is always nice to use the state of the art technology at the expenses of compatibility with older hardware.

I'm not so into the Radeon and Intel specs. but they announced a minimum GPU support.
"NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 or better, ATI Radeon HD 5670 or better, 1 GB VRAM"

Does that work on Vulkan and a newer version of OpenGL?

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

I'm not sure about AMD, but it seems we will be stuck with OpenGL. Vulkan is only supported on 600 series NVidia GPU's and higher.

[CunkFeatures]

AMD is GCN cards. Anything past the HD7800 class'.

Vulkan wont offer any more CPU performance as it's not the API dealing with these calculations. Maybe if you zoomed out and had a ton going on, but again its just for render tasks.

[MichDem]

"Minimal" graphic card supported by Train Fever runs OpenGL 2.0 (from 2004, could probbably run higher version, but that's what official specs tell you), while the current version is 4.5. Moving to 4.0 alone would make improvements, but with the cost of older hardware, and I doubt UG would go that way.

On top of that Vulkan is supposed to be recreated OpenGL but not compatible with it. It's still bleeging egde technology, and software developers usually don't use anything close to it.

TL;DR version: No, OpenGL most likelly stays. It's not ancient, but version's just old.

[amensch]

Well, how about Direct X 12 as an option, many people, including me, already upgraded to Win 10 and would like to see more games having DirectX 12 as an option.

[Gwinda]

Keep in mind that TF is cross-platform project. The Graphic library being used must be available on both Windows, Mac and Linux and that isn't enough, all features used in the library must also behave/look the same on all platforms.

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

Gwinda の投稿を引用：

Keep in mind that TF is cross-platform project. The Graphic library being used must be available on both Windows, Mac and Linux and that isn't enough, all features used in the library must also behave/look the same on all platforms.

And that is why I thought they will upgrade their game to Vulkan, because Vulkan is almost like Dirext 12, but cross platform. This game is quite graphically intense, especially when the cities become big and you have lots of things moving around.

[Gwinda]

GeneralGeldenhuys の投稿を引用：

Gwinda の投稿を引用：

Keep in mind that TF is cross-platform project. The Graphic library being used must be available on both Windows, Mac and Linux and that isn't enough, all features used in the library must also behave/look the same on all platforms.

And that is why I thought they will upgrade their game to Vulkan, because Vulkan is almost like Dirext 12, but cross platform. This game is quite graphically intense, especially when the cities become big and you have lots of things moving around.

I agree 100% with you. I was commenting the suggestion to use DirectX 12, I should have quoted amensch's comment, my bad :)

[MichDem]

amensch の投稿を引用：

Well, how about Direct X 12 as an option, many people, including me, already upgraded to Win 10 and would like to see more games having DirectX 12 as an option.

Not really. Right now less then 40% of Steam users use W10. Using D3D12 would limit it to those 40%. Better idea would be to use newer version of OpenGL, as you can get it running on Windows XP. However that would require newer hardware. That means smaller market, that means less sells. They would not do that.

[Morax]

To revisit this topic:

MichDem の投稿を引用：

Not really. Right now less then 40% of Steam users use W10

Right now the latest survey shows 44,5% of W10-users, second being W7 (37%), and W8.1 3rd with only 10% of userbase of the 95.5% being Windows-users. Both 32 and 64 bit versions, even though the 32-bit versions only account for 10% (XP included (1.7%)).

Using D3D12 would limit it to those 40%. Better idea would be to use newer version of OpenGL

Agreed. Since both DX12 and Vulcan are limited to AMD GCN-cards and nVidia Kepler and up (yes I'm aware they said Fermi when it comes to DX12, but it's not quite working now on your 400- and 500-series of cards, is it?), support for OpenGL4.x or something would be best.

as you can get it running on Windows XP. However that would require newer hardware.

The AMD 5xxx series supports OpenGL 4.4, while the (older) GeForce 200 series only supports 3.3 (which alone makes it curious why the GeForce 400 series isn't made minimum req.)
I'm not sure that still supporting Windows XP is a good thing though, since there are currently even more Mac-users than XP-users (which use Steam that is!)...

That means smaller market, that means less sells. They would not do that.

84% of the steam-users have at least a DX11 GPU, which also supports at least OpenGL 4.0, this includes Intel integrated graphics solutions like the HD4000, which makes out the majority of the non-DX12-compatible GPU's in use.
While over 13% still use a DX10/OGL 3.3 GPU, the GTX260-and-up is only 1% of this 13% (38% of this 13% being below-spec Intel graphics), so I don't see why supporting at least OGL 4.0 would be of major concern.

[CunkFeatures]

Antoni の投稿を引用：

Hmmmm, let's have a look at the system requirements.....


OS: Windows 7, 8 or 10 (64­bit)
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz
Memory: 4 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260, ATI Radeon HD 5670, 1 GB VRAM


Unless you are running this game on a toaster, i don't think it really matters.

That system would struggle to play Train Fever around the 1900s.
System requirements being a good basis for expected performance, really?

[CunkFeatures]

Antoni の投稿を引用：

The point i am making is that, anybody with a decent quad-core will get good performance with this game.

If you were talking about Ashes Of The Singularity (or any other high-end DX12 game) i could understand, but this is a small development team creating a transport / city management sim which won't give anyone sleepless nights worrying about performance.

Referring to Train/Transport Fever. A game designed to be accessible to everyone but as demanding and complicated as CiM1/2 when you pass a certain mass. No fault of the game, fairly common being a sandbox.

Intense load is this games only problem.

[CunkFeatures]

Antoni の投稿を引用：

If smoke starts coming from your PC when running this game, it's time to buy a machine that is younger than you, grandad.

Another miss understanding of how a computer works... but right okay.

Back to point, would be great to use Vulkan. But OpenGL seems to be on the cards.

[MichDem]

tomtalk24 の投稿を引用：

Antoni の投稿を引用：

If smoke starts coming from your PC when running this game, it's time to buy a machine that is younger than you, grandad.

Another miss understanding of how a computer works... but right okay.

Back to point, would be great to use Vulkan. But OpenGL seems to be on the cards.

Yes. As previously stated OGL is more widelly used then Vulkan and DX12. Especially that OGL version would be required anyway for Linux/Mac version

On the performance issue - I have quad-core CPU@4,2GHz (AMD FX4100) with 12 GB of RAM, Geforce 660Ti and about 4,2TB of storrage. And I can get the game to slow down. It really is a matter of scale and time.

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

MichDem の投稿を引用：

Yes. As previously stated OGL is more widelly used then Vulkan and DX12. Especially that OGL version would be required anyway for Linux/Mac version
[/quote]
Remember that Vulkan is also compatible with Mac and Linux. Vulkan, in fact, is OpenGL which is more improved, cleaned up and having the same capabilities DX12 has, yet is backwards compatible to Windows 7, 8 and also compatible for Linux and Mac. DX12 is locked down on Windows 10.

At the moment, developers are more inclined to implement Vulkan than DX12, because Vulkan can do the same DX12 currently do and works with Windows 7.