Pathfinding and Signal system is Broken

[Lord Squeak]

So I've been playing this for 2 days now, trying desperatly to clear the 3rd EU mission.
It can't be done!

The signaling system doesn't work.
Trains insist on getting gridlocked because 3 trains tries to go to the same platform (despite 3 free platforms to choose from)
There is no way to back up a train if it can't find a path, it just refuses to move.
The result is, train gets stuck, and the ONLY way to move a train out of the way, is to select a new line for it to follow.
This results in the old lines supply points being completely reset. Taking several years to build up to the same level again.

Time and time again, my iron ore train has gotten stuck, needing me to reset the line to make it move. this results in no ore being produced for the next few years, which in turn means no steel to trade for food. End result , I go from 10Mil+ to Redline in a few months. Making it impossible to do ANYTHING for 10 years,, which it takes to get back into Green again after one little trouble with the pathfinding.
And ofcourse thats when the next gridlock occurs.

Trains do NOT respect traficlights, at all.
I did manage to clear up some of the worst trouble after restarting and rebuilding with one-way signals. (this was before the 2 days i've been playing now btw)
I have added signals to the platforms, to steer trains onto their own platforms, and it's just being ignored, with trains going to where ever they want.

I accidently added a signal waypoint to a line, and the train ignored that waypoint, but the supply line stopped suppyling food. Meanwhile I'm busy trying to get the damn train to go to the correct platform, which it completely refuses. (4 platforms, 3 lines, train ofc goes in to block my steel train) Even when I try to one-way the signal on all other tracks.

Signals are useless, since it seems the trains path-ai overrides any signaling system.


When I bought this game, I was impressed with how much like TTD it was. And I fully expected the signaling system to work the same way.
It doesn't work the same way at all, I can't even figure out How it works!
It's like the trains have their own system that randomly selects a path which overrides any signaling you have.

I've been trying to clear the mission for 2 full days now.
It can't be done!
Every time I get into the green and start building up towards the 60 months needed to supply food for the cities, the pathfinding arranges a gridlock because all the trains tries to go into the same platform. and the supplylines gets reset (why the hell is that a thing btw?), and I'm quickly into the Red so I can't even delete a signal. All I can do at that point is speed the game up so that eventually after a few years, the trains decides to run through each other.
And by that point I'm looking at at least 4-5 years before the supplyline gets back into shape. and another 5 years before I'm back in the green so I can try to change the signaling a bit.


TTD had a great signaling system, anything between 2 signals was an area, if a train was in that area, the signal turns red.

This game, signals work at random it seems.

[bushviper]

Iv notcied this also my grain farm had two train tracks with one depo on one side so i had to cross the left track into the right lane to reach the depo. over time some how my line for the left lane gets on the right lane so they are on the same gd track n stop at the stations........
There for all the productions stop cuz grain cant go to the plastic factory....i have no clue how or why it started doing this iv never had this problem before.

N i never use signals they confuse me to hell. rather have two tracks with two trains then one n two trains lol.

[ancienthighway]

In addition to signals which control rail blocks, there are waypoints that when added to your line routing will force a train to take a specific rail line or platform. When you split a single track into two for a two track station, add the waypoint on each track and each side of the station if needed, amend the lines to force which platform to use.

[MariuM]

Thank you for posting your problem.
This problem is common for TTD vets.
The main issue is that TTD had individual pathing for each train blindly following the signals giving you complexity and control.
TrF has a line manager that gives control over lines but not individual trains.

To fix this you have to assign a line for each train and using waypoints to guide them into a specific track before the nex stop being the station. The stops should be the same but the waypoints would be different.

It's not broken, it's just a different game with a different mechanic.

Personally I'd like to see trains select a free platform on its own to keep my list of lines to become a complete mess after a while. Check both guides on signaling. They will clarify this for you.

Your frustration I believe comes from not being able to read about this in a game manual or told about it in-game. Which I perfectly understand.

Edit: Also, trainstatins and depots have built-in signals. Knowing this should also lessen the confusion.

[Weps]

Originally posted by ancienthighway:

In addition to signals which control rail blocks, there are waypoints that when added to your line routing will force a train to take a specific rail line or platform. When you split a single track into two for a two track station, add the waypoint on each track and each side of the station if needed, amend the lines to force which platform to use.

And you can also add the signals themselves as waypoints.

[MariuM]

Originally posted by Weps:

And you can also add the signals themselves as waypoints.

Yes, this is noteworthy. But i would advise using waypints still to keep their functions separate.
If you remove a signal you'll have to ask: "Was this also a waypoint?"
If you remove a waypoint you don't have to worry. It was a waypoint.
It could save your entire economy from an unfortunate mistake.

[Vimpster]

Why is it some people, instead of coming on and asking for help to understand something they are confused about, insist that the game must be broken because they couldn't figure it out. Implying that all the people playing with out any trouble are doing what exactly? I don't know.

There are many threads already with similar issues where other players have explained how the system works. I would suggest having a look at some.

[krist.vanbesien]

I have played TTD (and most other railway games there are), and I consider this the best, even though there are some issues still.
One mistake that gets made by poeple coming from TTD is that they put in to many signals, and fail to fully grasp how signals work. I few quick tips:
- Only put a signal where you a train can stop in front of it without blocking anything.
- A signal will go green if a train can reserve a path till the next signal. This is very different from the way TTD worked.
- Trains will follow the route you set for the,. Use waypoints to fine tune the exact path a train takes.
The end result is that you do need far less signals than in TTD, and that you have more control over routing. But you do not have the dynamic platform assignment TTD had. I find the system Transport Fever superior to what TTD used.

[JarlBSoD]

I had this problem aswell, Cleard it upp with waypoints. Worked fine for about 30 mins then the AI decided to ignore the WP and enter a station on the wrong track anyway resaulting in compleete breakdown of my supplylines and all my money was gone, didnt even bother to try and get back up to where i was.

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

As others already said, trains use the line and you have to setup the network where the line goes, not the trains.

The key difference between TTD and TPF is that TTD stations have a slow loading system whereby each wagon is loaded individually. This caused people to build a 2-4 platform station to help loading cargo faster.

In TPF, the loading time increases with more wagons, which means that all wagons are loaded at the same time, not individually. A train with 8 passenger coaches will load 8 times faster than a train with 4 passenger coaches which will load 4 times faster than a passenger train with 1 coach.

This made the usage of multi platforms for the same line obsolete. Now you only build platforms for the number of lines passing through them, not for quicker unloading.

[Voice From Beyond]

Originally posted by GeneralGeldenhuys:

In TPF, the loading time increases with more wagons, which means that all wagons are loaded at the same time, not individually. A train with 8 passenger coaches will load 8 times faster than a train with 4 passenger coaches which will load 4 times faster than a passenger train with 1 coach.

The different coaches can also have different loading speeds.

[Lord Squeak]

Originally posted by Weps:

Originally posted by ancienthighway:

In addition to signals which control rail blocks, there are waypoints that when added to your line routing will force a train to take a specific rail line or platform. When you split a single track into two for a two track station, add the waypoint on each track and each side of the station if needed, amend the lines to force which platform to use.

And you can also add the signals themselves as waypoints.

And this is exactly what I did.
Yet the train completely ignored the waypoint and tried to enter the platform where the steel train was unloading, blocking its path. This on a 4 track platform, with 3 free platforms.
This behaviour can only be described as Broken!

Furthermore, I backed up the train blocking the path,paused, added one-way signals to Really block the path to the 3 platforms I dont want the train to go to.
And it Still went in to block my steel train, completely ignoring one-way signals.
This behaviour can only be described as Broken!

---

Now I did go in thinking it worked the same way as TTD when I started playing this game, and quickly discovered that it doesn't. Which is why I restarted the first time.

---

The problem is that trains does not respect signals, and trains does not respect the line either.
The problem is that sometimes, the train has decided on a route that is blocked by another train, and when that happends, there is no way to change it's mind. None!
The only option then is to back up the other train, until it leaves a free path for the first train to take. Of course by then that train is block on the other side by a 3rd train, and so on. eventually resulting in ALL the trains getting gridlocked.

If I'm unlucky, the one train that I can reverse, Can't. Because it can't find a path. at which point there is Nothing I can do, except change the line for that train, so it can reverse, then set the original line back to what it was.

This results in the supplyline being reset, taking years to build up to the point when trains actually fill up again.
This will of course affect any supplylines dependant on the first supplyline.

The result of messing with any lines of a train, or just sending into the depo to add carriages or change the engine, is that the supply line gets reset.

---

I have to keep all the trains windows open, and babysit them so that I can quickly see if a train gets stuck somewhere, and hopefully reverse it before the whole system gets gridlocked.
If I miss a blocked train somewhere, I'm very quickly going to go from 15Mil + into the red, leaving me unable to make any changes at all, for the next decade or so.
So eventually by the time I've gotten back into green again, the next gridlock occurs, and so it goes on.

---

The only way to play this game at this point, is to run single track lines, and never cross them. Because the trains/lines does NOT respect signalling or waypoints.

And this pretty much removes the whole point of using trains.
I realise that I'm never ever going to have a map with a huge 7 or more platform station in the middle of the map, and get that to work, which was one of the great joys in OTTD.

---

So at this point, I'm just going to buy lots of trucks and supply the cities that way to clear the mission. *sigh*

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

Originally posted by Lord Squeak:

And this is exactly what I did.
Yet the train completely ignored the waypoint and tried to enter the platform where the steel train was unloading, blocking its path. This on a 4 track platform, with 3 free platforms.
This behaviour can only be described as Broken!

Furthermore, I backed up the train blocking the path,paused, added one-way signals to Really block the path to the 3 platforms I dont want the train to go to.
And it Still went in to block my steel train, completely ignoring one-way signals.
This behaviour can only be described as Broken!

The game is not broken. How many times do people need to explain this game is NOT TTD.

The trains will NOT select a random open platform.

How many times do we need to explain that trains follow the LINE, not their own paths.

Setup the signals according to the LINE, not how you want the trains to go.

And I will say again, this game is NOT TTD. So, stop spinning BS and learn how to play as this is NOT broken.

[Mad Max]

In my current game i use many lines with 2 or more trains. Double railtrack outside the stations, but ending always in 1 plattform. To manage this i set waypoints (envolved in line) and signals before turnouts from 2 to 1 rail: one track in one direction, the other for the opposite way. It works well the most time. Only sometimes, usually if you let autoreplace the trains of a line, the trains lost orientation and drive against the ordered direction - this situation is frustrating and needs a lot of manual work, to fix the deadlock. One thing that helps often, is to build a additional turnout close to the station, to give the outgoing train the possibility to change to the correct track after directed on the wrong by the a.i., but for reliability its better to have at least one train of every multitrainroute open as window to react quick in case of another deadlock - deadlocks can cost extreme much money, especially if the raw material transport line of a complex production chain is out of action. This problem should be fixed by the developers...if they knew it already?!?

[Lord Squeak]

@generalgeldenhuys
You seem to have failed to understand that the train completely ignores the signals.
It doesn't matter how I setup the signals, because the train / line / path finding / little gnome driving the train, completely ignores the signals and waypoints. Even when setting one-way signals.

This makes Signaling and Path finding, Broken!

[GeneralGeldenhuys]

Originally posted by Lord Squeak:

@generalgeldenhuys
You seem to have failed to understand that the train completely ignores the signals.
It doesn't matter how I setup the signals, because the train / line / path finding / little gnome driving the train, completely ignores the signals and waypoints. Even when setting one-way signals.

This makes Signaling and Path finding, Broken!

It's not broken unless you can show some screenshots about your problem.

Seems you fail to understand you need to setup the signals according to where the line follows. The highlighted stripe that follows the path where the train goes.

Show some screenshots and we will try to help, but to claim the system is broken is just pure BS.