Train management / timetables

[Hudy_CZ]

Hello. How do you manage trains in later game? I have many main lines, where are some passanger trains, which stops in every city and express trains, which stops only in bigger cities. There are also some freight trains on the track. The problem is, that during overtaking some trains are a bit delayed. And if there are 4 trains on one line, after some time one catches the train before. How to manage the trains to keep the same gap between them, when there is some trafic on the line? In OpenTTD there was timetables. You were able to set times of the journey and time of stay in the stations. If you added some time to that timetable, than the train had some space to lower the delay.

It is quite annoing to still manage the trains manualy in the later game.

[Hudy_CZ]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von gGeorg:

The game has twisted economy. Best way you could handle "combined" traffic is build dedicated track for each line. Price of second (or just other) track is a bargain. Price of second track from one city to another is lower than one wagon. More over, track has no maintenace. Only Stations has maintenance, but not depots.
So even few hikups on trafic lights are more expensive than whole dedicated track. Unfortunated. As result, pretty comon Tranport Fever network is 6 track line city to city which serverves for 3 lines. Passanger, Passanger express, and cargo.

OTTD you build an complicated network and watch how trains pass each other and look for a route. Here you lay point to point connection, attach dedicated platform and ... that is. No management, timetables is required.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Gregorovitch:

I beleive there is an an algorithm in the game to allow fast trains to pass slower ones on the same line,

I belive in virgin riding unicorn in our city park. :=) Dunno. Maybe worth trying though.

I asked righ because I do not want to build 6 tracks to manage 3 lines, When I am able to have 5 lines on two tracks with good train management.

[SirLANsalot]

you need 4 tracks at most.

inner 2 tracks for passenger services, outer two tracks for all things freight. If you want an express line, then you can make a 3rd set of tracks, or just make sure to use Bypass tracks.

However I run all of my track like this
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=804241903

I make sure I am using the same speed trains in all cases, or at least ones within +/-10mph (using Big Boy (81mph) for some trains while using the normal GE loco (99 mph) for others for freight). I always have a bypass line for at least the fright, sometimes the passenger if needed, and everything flows nicely.


Time Tables are NOT needed in this game, you just have to THINK and solve the problems presented to you. Stop trying to play OTTD and START playing Transport Fever, they are very different games!

[dazkaz]

I have been enjoying this game for many hours now, and what I have started doing is using four track, main lines.
The main lines don't run though the stations, but pass close to the town and are kept as straight as possible for max speed. The stations, freight and passenger are placed alongside the main line and connected into it, front and back. Express trains not needing to stop at the stations continue on at speed on the main line.
The four main line tracks are split into two fast (=>200km/h trains) and two slow tracks. Express trains and other non stopping, slow trains, get a chance to overtake when they pull into the stations.

The best way I have found to keep trains sharing the same line separated, is to set the busiest station only, to wait until full.

In my image, you can see an example of what I describe above.
It’s not a great example as I have track all over the place, because this is still my original game, that I have been learning on since I started playing weeks ago.
In the centre of the image you can see the main line branch off in two directions with a passenger station and a freight station connected into it.

To the right is an old station that I placed many moons ago and can be ignored for the purpose of this example.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817174724

[Bpbill]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dh74:

Yup that works .... as long as you have same train types.

If you have 3 stoptrains with 140 km om a track ... and add a TGV intercity ... you are in trouble

You can solve by laying a paralel track for high speed only ... and one for goods next to that ... but its not very realistic .... and looks stupid in the end

I think its one of the biggest failures in TF ... overtaking / train priority should have been a ( basic ) feature that should have been thought of

How is that not realistic? A busy line could well have slow up fast up slow down fast down and freight tracks side by side.

[dh74]

Because in real life trains will take over. A slow goods train stops so an intercity can take over.

Also a few paralel tracks work great in the beginning ... but when stuf gets more complex you end up with 10 to 15 paralell tracks to get the trains going. Im playing on hard .... gigantic map ... i have 1.1 billion .... played 500 game years starting in 1850.... connected several industies ... lots of cities .... and it can not be handeled withouth many many many paralell tracks. It looks stupid ... and is not realistic

The busy line between amsterdam and rotterdam is 2 tracks wide for the most part in real life ... it has stoptrains ... intercities .... some high speed and some goods trains .... al possible because trains can overtake ( basic ) scheduling ... priority and signaling

Now we have a transport game .... that focusss on TRANSPORT ... but not even fast trucks overtake a slower bus !!! So must i build paralel highways also to get my busses and trucks seperated ??? Why not pave the complete map with roads and tracks 😁

Again .... a 10 to 15 wide train track between a few cities is not realistic at al.

[SirLANsalot]

its been explained many times, you only need 4 tracks, 6 if you want express. Not 10 not 15 not 400, FOUR!

2 for fright, 2 for passenger, nothing more is needed for your main line. From there you can put branch lines in heading to other cities, or industries ect.

Track laying isn't that difficult, it really isn't, takes practice yes, but its not that hard.

dh74, if you really were playing on hard, on a gigantic map, you wouldn't be having this problem, especially if you have been running 500 years in that game. Just split out your fright line to be a separate track, it doesn't matter is its "realistic", realism left a LONG time ago. Running fright on a separate set of tracks will fix a lot of your issues.

[dh74]

Yes i'm running on hard on the gigantic map ( OK 348 years instead of 500 ).

The issue is the high frequency ( lot of trains ) to keep industry going. So 2 tracks to handle COMPLETE circles of food / fuel and goods is to little. So lets say tha will take 4 or 6 ... then i have 2 tracks for pax stoptrain ... 2 tracks for intercity .... and 2 tracks to run a tgv line. THATS 12 and even that is just so so.

Remember ... for goods u need plastic ... planks ... steel ... and those 3 need seperate circles also .... like iron ore and coal. I talk on COMPLETE circles with a good frequentie to keep it going in a good way.

I did not get 1.1 billion not knowing how the game works.

And this is just trains ... then i'm not even starting on seperate roads for trucks and busses ... and workarounds to bypass traffic jams. Like stated before ... four tracks will do in most cases ... but when you continue playing ( even on gigantic map ) i run out of buildspace to pave the map with more tracks and roads around some cities.

I know its a game ... and nor realistic ... but train priority and cars overtaking is just a BASIC for a TRANSPORT game

Also ... i'm not stating i have twelve tracks everywhere .... but around 3 cities i end up with huge layers of tracks if i want to suply what i want. I refuse that ( my problem ) because i simple overtake routine and train priority could solve al the crap. So i leave it like it is ... start on another place on the map ... but it sucks

Last but not least .... it depends on how your map looks .... if industries are widely seperated you can work with branch lines ... my main city has the luck it has lots of industries close by ... thats fun in the beginning of the game ( more easy ) but when you progress ... demands growing ... traffic jammed ... trains involved ... its getting ALMOST undoable .... so for one person the 4 tracks work perfectly .... for others with a different RANDOM map its not doable

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817567185

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817567207

[Saint Landwalker]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dh74:

Also a few paralel tracks work great in the beginning ... but when stuf gets more complex you end up with 10 to 15 paralell tracks to get the trains going. Im playing on hard .... gigantic map ... i have 1.1 billion .... played 500 game years starting in 1850.... connected several industies ... lots of cities .... and it can not be handeled withouth many many many paralell tracks. It looks stupid ... and is not

That's ridiculous, and I wish people would stop trotting out "oh I did XYZ so my opinion matters more" nonsense. I've reached $1.1B around 1985 with a Hard 1850 start without using any trains at all; does that mean my opinion gets to count more than other folks' opinions?

I hope so, because my opinion is that all this is overblown. I've never needed more than four parallel tracks (and that only rarely, near stations). I've only rarely bothered to use any unreasonable shenanigans in road construction to bypass excessive traffic. I do not see it in any way being so bad as some people make it out to be.

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a game. Just because something is such and such in real life does not make it so here. Games (and all software) are limited in what they can do. Overtaking requires dynamic pathfinding on the vehicle level, and this game does not have that. Obstinately refusing to play the game as it was designed to be played and then complaining that it's creating problems is, honestly, insanity. You have tools to solve most of the problems in the game. It isn't the game's fault if you refuse to use them.

[dh74]

Landwalker ... i think you did not read my post completely

Also i like to add that i did not mention the 1.1 bil to brag ... but just to tell the reader i understand the game ( how industry works ... how to bypass bugs etc etc ) so i'm not getting the smartass reaction like " you do not understand ".

I love the game .... but it could have been MUCH better involving some BASIC transportation rules.

I'm not forcing people my oppinion ... i'm trying to discuss and like to share what is bothering me.

I like to suport some people who are getting flamed by "smarter" people ... who are actually being dumb.

People BUY a transport game .... thinking they can some BASIC real world transporting ... again BASIC. I'm not asking much just BASIC. Then they buy a game get into trouble and some dumb folks state " aaaaah just lay paralel tracks " .... aaah use buslanes everywhere .... aaah build seperate roads for busses and trucks ... but that is what alot of the complainyers do not want.... they just want some BASIC transporting stuf like instercity stop train stuf ( railroad tycoon in the 90's .... its 2016 now )

[SirLANsalot]

I will say it again.

Stop trying to play OTTD/RRT/TTD and start playing Transport Fever.

Yes this game has simplified rules compared to the old games, but its also more complex then them BECAUSE IT'S A 3D GAME. You cannot compare a 2d grid based game, to a 3d free form game, mechanically they are vastly different. Just because it "worked in the 90's" doesn't mean it will work here.

So, start playing within the rules and tools of the game, instead of trying to play out some other game. You have only yourself to blame otherwise.

[Paikia]

While it's true that the game does indeed lack a couple of important elements (schedueling and advanced signaling) and therefore requires building more sets of tracks to allow lots of trains to move around, I pretty much agree with the claim that there's practically no need for more than 3 parallel sets of dual tracks per route, and that's only if you run your passenger and cargo lines together (which is definitely not the only way to go).

I'm sure there are many approaches and many strategies to choose from, and mine is pretty simple:

1) Each set of dual tracks serves trains of similar average speeds. Slow and Express don't mix. That's why you need two sets of tracks for passenger lines: one for slow ("Normal"), one for express. For cargo and for either one of the passengers lines, choose one setup (loco + type and number of wagons) and don't stray from it too much, or your line will get messed up if you have a lot of trains. Notice that I used the term "average speed" and not "maximum speed", since at least the way I play the game, many of the trains carry a lot of weight and barely reach their maximum speed. Whether that's a good idea or not, is a different discussion. :)

2) If you really want to, you can use one set of tracks for cargo *and* slow passenger service. I believe it can work, although I haven't tried it myself, since I see no reason to. Building tracks is cheap enough for me to build the extra set without worrying about it too much.

3) As far as cargo and slow passenger trains are concerned, I guess the key is the balance between power and weight per train. While many short trains have a serious advantage when it comes to keeping your cargo chain working and your passengers happy with a low line frequency, such a setup can cause exactly the type of problem you're complaining about - crowded tracks, as each train needs its time to load, unload and accelerate, and the game's attempts to space out trains on a line evenly doesn't help (to say the least), so trains get stuck, frequencies get messed up and your cargo chains are a bust anyway. If that was my problem, I'd just take out a few locos off the line and have their wagons divided between the other trains. A few heavy trains won't get stuck as often plenty light trains, and you might find out you can manage an efficient, cost-effective line with all of 6 tracks in total, at the most (4 if you're willing to give it more effort).

========== EDIT:
I think another element that's causing the tracks (and roads and truck stations too) to be more crowded is the scale. Someone mentioned it on another thread (regarding truck stations), and it might be true in this case as well. I'm not an expert, but the proportion does seem off. Both the trains and the stations seem too big in relation to the cities. Assuming this distortion applies to the open spaces as well (which seems likely, although I'm not sure about any of this), it obviously adds to the lack of realism, as trains take much bigger portions of the tracks than they should have. Can anyone confirm or refute that?

[7even]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hudy_CZ:

It is shame, because in OpenTTD it is very basic thing. You just set train to stop in station for 10 days. Unloading and loading takes 8 days so the train waits two days if it is on time. If not, than it just go immediately so it can shorten the delay by that two days or more, if un/loading is faster. The same is with the long of the journey. If the train is on time, it waits, if not it shorten the delay.

Wrong.

In OpenTTD this feature was added very late, first as custom patch for a long time which you had to compile with the game on your own. OpenTTD was stable and mature a long time before this feature got added.

Do not compare a dinosaur with a baby! Let the baby grow instead - you educate it instead of crying over it, if you're smart.

[SBGaming]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dh74:

Landwalker ... i think you did not read my post completely

I find when people say this, it gives them (you in this case) an excuse to completely disregard what the other person wrote, and pretend that you actually have a relevant point, rather than having to deal with the points or reasons raised.

People BUY a transport game .... thinking they can some BASIC real world transporting ... again BASIC. I'm not asking much just BASIC. Then they buy a game get into trouble and some dumb folks state " aaaaah just lay paralel tracks " .... aaah use buslanes everywhere .... aaah build seperate roads for busses and trucks ... but that is what alot of the complainyers do not want.... they just want some BASIC transporting stuf like instercity stop train stuf ( railroad tycoon in the 90's .... its 2016 now )

As someone who has not played any of those other transport games, when coming into this game, I was not saddled with the baggage of how other games handle things, like this so called basic real world transportation. Your complaints and issues exist because you're unwilling to accept the way Transport Fever handles these things, and so you are very obviously playing the wrong game. If you want to play Railroad Tycoon, go off and play Railroad Tycoon.

As SirLansalot says, stop trying to play this game like you might have played other games. If it requires you to have a 12-track main line to handle everything, then that is what you're going to have to build.

[Saint Landwalker]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SBGaming:

As someone who has not played any of those other transport games, when coming into this game, I was not saddled with the baggage of how other games handle things, like this so called basic real world transportation. Your complaints and issues exist because you're unwilling to accept the way Transport Fever handles these things, and so you are very obviously playing the wrong game. If you want to play Railroad Tycoon, go off and play Railroad Tycoon.

I didn't point this out in my last post, but in the interest of full disclosure / clarity for those unfamiliar with it, Railroad Tycoon "handled" priorization by only letting you build a maximum of two-wide tracks (one track in each direction) and having trains essentially "phase through" lower-priority trains on the same track. These lower-priority trains would sort of "ghost out" and stop during this process, then pick up wherever they left off once the higher-priority train finished passing through them. It was a servicable but very highly-abstracted way of handling the situation of a higher-priority train "catching" a lower-priority train.

TPF does not have that level of abstraction (nor, in my opinion, should it), so it requires the player to come up with their own solutions within the parameters of the game (i.e. within the limits of line-level pathfinding). If a player doesn't want to use the provided tools, or wants different parameters (e.g. vehicle-level pathfinding), then perhaps they would be better served with games that provide a different set of tools.

[Hudy_CZ]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 7even:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hudy_CZ:

It is shame, because in OpenTTD it is very basic thing. You just set train to stop in station for 10 days. Unloading and loading takes 8 days so the train waits two days if it is on time. If not, than it just go immediately so it can shorten the delay by that two days or more, if un/loading is faster. The same is with the long of the journey. If the train is on time, it waits, if not it shorten the delay.

Wrong.

In OpenTTD this feature was added very late, first as custom patch for a long time which you had to compile with the game on your own. OpenTTD was stable and mature a long time before this feature got added.

Do not compare a dinosaur with a baby! Let the baby grow instead - you educate it instead of crying over it, if you're smart.

I know, that it is not there from the beginning, but this thing realy changed the game from my point of view. The best thing is, that this feature does not affect the gameplay to those, who do not use it, but it realy improved the gameplay and train management to those, who use it.

Developers of this game said, that they took the best from transport games, so do not tell here s-h-i-t-s like play it like a transport fever and do not troll here with opentttd. We all should want to have this game better and better. And if the train management is the key for many of us and will not affect the game for those of you, who want to play this game "like transport fever" than it is great.

So if you do not have any ideas, how the game could be upgraded, than do not troll here. On the other side those of you, who wants some better management, than it would be great if we talk about it here. That was all about it.

The prioritization from Railroad tycoon should be also good. If I have a slow train, than it can reserve only on block before him. The faster trains should reserve two or more block before him. It will help a bit, and should be easy to do, but it will not solve the problem with the train management.