engineer underrated. and overpowered

[Random™?]

https://battles.tv/watch/VEWFKEG im a firm beleiver that bloon trap needs a HUGE PRICE INCREASE. its far too cheap for what it does. that upgrade alone (on most maps but not all) single handedly counters bloon eco strats. if the player gets it early, round 10 ish... a 2x 2/2 wizards can defend till then. sell one and get a bloon trap. i was unable to gain eco... without giving him money KEEP IN MIND HE WAS STILL ABLE TO DO SO HIMSELF.. it can devour full ceramics.. unless youre going to spend a TON of money on camo rushes (which other towers would be able to defend (ninja wizard comes to mind) there is very little youre able to do against them other than sit with lower than ideal eco.. or send them bloons and give them money. theyre always going to have higher income due to them getting money every 6 seconds (able to be raised with no downsides).. AND get 500$ every time a trap fills up.. which natural bloons round 18 or so do several times a round. its FAR TOO SAFE of an upgrade and has very little downsides (moab class bloons, but counters everything else really well). they pay for themselves in 1 or two rounds easily. and your opponent is unable to rush with anything beside MOAB+.

if anyone has any tips on how to get past it. other than attempt to outlast it with low eco, please let me know. farms>eco.. not just for income. but farms cant be countered to a point that you sending your opponents bloons=them getting more money

[Random™?]

you people have only played btd havnt you. my name isnt LFT... thats a tag that means "Looking For Team" Lawlzer thank you for posting something productive. 4/0 engineers make eco a lot harder than it needs to be. what eco youre gaining. you'll end up giving your opponent quite a bit of income either farm or eco back at you. and mid game rushes very 1 sided.

[Lawlzer]

Автор сообщения: Random-LFT RGL.gg

you people have only played btd havnt you. my name isnt LFT... thats a tag that means "Looking For Team" Lawlzer thank you for posting something productive. 4/0 engineers make eco a lot harder than it needs to be. what eco youre gaining. you'll end up giving your opponent quite a bit of income either farm or eco back at you. and mid game rushes very 1 sided.

Look at it this way:
Meta is your goal to beat, otherwise you'll lose to the best strategies, and your strategy fails. (As, the majority of people use the meta)

Meta is farms, by far, on the main majority of maps.

So, yes, the 4/0 engi is pretty good against eco... But nearly nobody uses eco, which makes engi 4/0 pretty bad, unless eco becomes meta.

[Lilith Vampy]

Автор сообщения: Lawlzer

Автор сообщения: Random-LFT RGL.gg

you people have only played btd havnt you. my name isnt LFT... thats a tag that means "Looking For Team" Lawlzer thank you for posting something productive. 4/0 engineers make eco a lot harder than it needs to be. what eco youre gaining. you'll end up giving your opponent quite a bit of income either farm or eco back at you. and mid game rushes very 1 sided.

Look at it this way:
Meta is your goal to beat, otherwise you'll lose to the best strategies, and your strategy fails. (As, the majority of people use the meta)

Meta is farms, by far, on the main majority of maps.

So, yes, the 4/0 engi is pretty good against eco... But nearly nobody uses eco, which makes engi 4/0 pretty bad, unless eco becomes meta.

Hey, that's pretty good 👍
That was one of my first arguments i made billy boy

[Random™?]

thats the issue though. farm is meta. because farm is a reliable income source with the only true downsides being EXTREME late game.. and not having a 4 tower loadout... even on longer maps. farms have the potentional to still be more viable than bloon eco.

my main issue being. engineer can counter bloon eco. but nother expect constantly harrassing your opponent can "counter" farms. the issue with "farm vs eco" is that eco cant greed early without risk of a rush. while if you save up to defend a potentional all out. you lose out on that eco that youre not sending.. which puts the game in the farm players hands. they control how the pace of the game at that point.. generally the only safe time to "rush" a farm user. is when they go for their factory. rush with a bfb/moab, and you have POTENTIONAL. to force them to sell the factory and step back down to a few farms spread out.. another reason i feel eco needs a buff.. say your playing a long map with limited places for farms (bloon circles for example). once you get your farms set and all are factories with no where else to put a farm.... then what?... oh yeah. you start getting your bloon eco up because you still have that option... not only do you have the edge with reliable income. and the ability to sell a 4/2 factory for 19k at a moments notice.. but you still have the power to bloon eco as well to make up that loss in EXTREME lategame that bloon eco only would have the edge on. pinks send out pretty fast and wouldnt take long to catch you up.

[Lawlzer]

Автор сообщения: Random-LFT RGL.gg

thats the issue though. farm is meta. because farm is a reliable income source with the only true downsides being EXTREME late game.. and not having a 4 tower loadout... even on longer maps. farms have the potentional to still be more viable than bloon eco.

my main issue being. engineer can counter bloon eco. but nother expect constantly harrassing your opponent can "counter" farms. the issue with "farm vs eco" is that eco cant greed early without risk of a rush. while if you save up to defend a potentional all out. you lose out on that eco that youre not sending.. which puts the game in the farm players hands. they control how the pace of the game at that point.. generally the only safe time to "rush" a farm user. is when they go for their factory. rush with a bfb/moab, and you have POTENTIONAL. to force them to sell the factory and step back down to a few farms spread out.. another reason i feel eco needs a buff.. say your playing a long map with limited places for farms (bloon circles for example). once you get your farms set and all are factories with no where else to put a farm.... then what?... oh yeah. you start getting your bloon eco up because you still have that option... not only do you have the edge with reliable income. and the ability to sell a 4/2 factory for 19k at a moments notice.. but you still have the power to bloon eco as well to make up that loss in EXTREME lategame that bloon eco only would have the edge on. pinks send out pretty fast and wouldnt take long to catch you up.

Of course.
Yet, the point of engineer is to counter eco... and extremely few players use eco, making engi bad.
You seem to be making a pure farm eco vs eco comparison, ignoring the fact of the farm taking an extra slot. Having 2 towers is much harder to use and defend lategame with, as opposed to using 3 towers. Aka, bloons move at 50% speed, when using eco :)

But, it's retarded to use farms on bloon circles, unless you're grinding (Marwan lul). One tower less, and even if you got farms as a 4th, it's still probably stupid (until rounds 12-15 IMO), as eco should give you much more money, unless you antistall or something.

[Random™?]

" because farm is a reliable income source with the only true downsides being EXTREME late game.. and not having a 4 tower loadout.." im not ignoring it, and A LOT OF THE PLAYERS I SEE (then again i dont play high arena's due to inconsistant internets that likes to dc me for no reason =\) most players antistall. intentional or not. so it not quite the easiest thing to always stall the round.

[Lilith Vampy]

OMFG, Fill bloons circles with faqs then start to send bloon eco, say what!? By the point you fill that map with loaded farms you'll HAVE to start your rush else you'll die, rather, by the the point you get your 5th farm you really SHOULD start sending spaced ZOMGs and continue to build your farm, that way you will disturb their eco and hope to god, they're bad, on Circles you should get your 5th farm way before round 30, and send right away.... Doesn't matter how much money you're making, unlimited money won't make a difference if you can't go past certain rounds. YOU ARE A FARMER!
I can hardly see farm beating eco on circles, even if the farmer get a good 4th and the eco player gets glue it's still on the eco's favor. Even if Marwn was still playing, i doubt even he would farm there, he's not dumb and he knows how to play the game.
Also why do you keep pushing the "EXTREME LATE GAME" on every argument you make? I thought i debunked that like 3 coments ago, when a lot of popular strats can't even make to round 32, most of the strats can't defend round 32, and a very few exceptions can get to 35~40. When i said in that coment that farmers can't hold anything past 43, i'm not joking, unless you're using a script, I don't know anyone who has the micro to defend all outs on round 38, so, I don't know what you mean by extreme late game, i recommend you watching jajajosh getting to round 124, that's extreme late game!

Also you said you don't specifically play on higher arenas because your internet is unstable, meaning you do, still play on lower arenas knowingly you have a bad connection, that leave the impression you don't mind losing unless it's not a high arena, meaing the medallions is what makes you concerned, that line of thought is what you normally see with new players to the game that don't have many meds to spare and losing on a BFBC arena is a big hit to them

[Lawlzer]

Автор сообщения: Fake Hero

OMFG, Fill bloons circles with faqs then start to send bloon eco, say what!? By the point you fill that map with loaded farms you'll HAVE to start your rush else you'll die, rather, by the the point you get your 5th farm you really SHOULD start sending spaced ZOMGs and continue to build your farm, that way you will disturb their eco and hope to god, they're bad, on Circles you should get your 5th farm way before round 30, and send right away.... Doesn't matter how much money you're making, unlimited money won't make a difference if you can't go past certain rounds. YOU ARE A FARMER!
I can hardly see farm beating eco on circles, even if the farmer get a good 4th and the eco player gets glue it's still on the eco's favor. Even if Marwn was still playing, i doubt even he would farm there, he's not dumb and he knows how to play the game.
Also why do you keep pushing the "EXTREME LATE GAME" on every argument you make? I thought i debunked that like 3 coments ago, when a lot of popular strats can't even make to round 32, most of the strats can't defend round 32, and a very few exceptions can get to 35~40. When i said in that coment that farmers can't hold anything past 43, i'm not joking, unless you're using a script, I don't know anyone who has the micro to defend all outs on round 38, so, I don't know what you mean by extreme late game, i recommend you watching jajajosh getting to round 124, that's extreme late game!

Also you said you don't specifically play on higher arenas because your internet is unstable, meaning you do, still play on lower arenas knowingly you have a bad connection, that leave the impression you don't mind losing unless it's not a high arena, meaing the medallions is what makes you concerned, that line of thought is what you normally see with new players to the game that don't have many meds to spare and losing on a BFBC arena is a big hit to them

+1

[Random™?]

Автор сообщения: Lawlzer

Автор сообщения: Random-LFT RGL.gg

thats the issue though. farm is meta. because farm is a reliable income source with the only true downsides being EXTREME late game.. and not having a 4 tower loadout... even on longer maps. farms have the potentional to still be more viable than bloon eco.

my main issue being. engineer can counter bloon eco. but nother expect constantly harrassing your opponent can "counter" farms. the issue with "farm vs eco" is that eco cant greed early without risk of a rush. while if you save up to defend a potentional all out. you lose out on that eco that youre not sending.. which puts the game in the farm players hands. they control how the pace of the game at that point.. generally the only safe time to "rush" a farm user. is when they go for their factory. rush with a bfb/moab, and you have POTENTIONAL. to force them to sell the factory and step back down to a few farms spread out.. another reason i feel eco needs a buff.. say your playing a long map with limited places for farms (bloon circles for example). once you get your farms set and all are factories with no where else to put a farm.... then what?... oh yeah. you start getting your bloon eco up because you still have that option... not only do you have the edge with reliable income. and the ability to sell a 4/2 factory for 19k at a moments notice.. but you still have the power to bloon eco as well to make up that loss in EXTREME lategame that bloon eco only would have the edge on. pinks send out pretty fast and wouldnt take long to catch you up.

Of course.
Yet, the point of engineer is to counter eco... and extremely few players use eco, making engi bad.
You seem to be making a pure farm eco vs eco comparison, ignoring the fact of the farm taking an extra slot. Having 2 towers is much harder to use and defend lategame with, as opposed to using 3 towers. Aka, bloons move at 50% speed, when using eco :)

But, it's retarded to use farms on bloon circles, unless you're grinding (Marwan lul). One tower less, and even if you got farms as a 4th, it's still probably stupid (until rounds 12-15 IMO), as eco should give you much more money, unless you antistall or something.

we're not playing rock paper scizors ... there shouldnt be a "counter" to eco... and "extremely few players use eco making engi bad." thats because farms are better.... i just lost YET ANOTHER GAME due to someone having a bloon trap.. im not joking when i say a single bloon trap and 3 4/2 ninjas destroyed a 3x boosted moab (he had a single misdirect cobra ready) rush on round 20 becuase they pop the moab... and send the cermaics back up track. i watched to replay.. we had comparitive eco. which means neither one of us should have had a huge advatage over the other. but wait... he had A SINGLE BLOON TRAP.. that forced me to stop ecoing early. otherwise im just going to feed into his eco.. while he builds his own eco... and i lose to a rush that i cant beat just due ONLY to the fact that he had more money than i did.. greed is easy enough to punish.. you dont need a tower like bloon trap existing. a single bloon trap can do WAY TOO WELL during mid game.. and give you money out of it.. i know engineer isnt the most used tower but if you sole defense to the arguement of "bloons trap op" is that "not many people use eco" then you have clearly never put thought into the arguement past that... no one is going to use eco.. if it can be punished that hard. farms can punish eco pretty easy in early/mid game.. farms are more vertile (can be sold for defend/rush) AND CANT BE PUNISHED BY A SINGLE TOWER... engineer is the ONLY TOWER IN GAME that can make money off your opponent sending bloons at you. its the ultimate "♥♥♥♥ YOU" to eco players.. lord forbid i play with a different strat than just farms all day.. without having the risk of someone getting lucky. predicting i use eco (by the way bloon trap still defending rounds 16+ really well. hell you can make a few THOUSAND on round 32 itself).. my arguement being and ill just put it in plain text since no one here can fathom the concept of something being op....

THERE SHOULD NOT BE A TOWER OR ABILITY THAT CAN MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR OPPONENT SENDING YOU BLOONS

i suggested a slight rework to bloon trap.. it can suck up my eco all day long.. if it doesnt count to my opponents income from them... or perhaps like someone said earlier in this thread.. a "bloon" that you can click to raise your eco. without sending your opponent bloons.. either one of those would do wanders for the balance of the game... bloon trap would still make money from defending round 16+ really well.. it wouldnt be a brick wall for an eco player to face.. and it wouldnt make this game cancerous for the "extremely few eco players" there are.

[Lilith Vampy]

"scizors", and you still complain when people call you a kid, english is not my main language and even I know how to spell it right lol
The fact that it took you 2 weeks to make up a reply just proof of your defeat, don't try making excuses, you were bitc-hing this entire week about the wizard being OP on the other thread, you sound like a triggered noob that can't win in a game and rages on the forums over it, I bet you BM too.
Oh, 3 bloonjitsus and a bloon trap defended my 3 boosted moabs :c It's so broken guys, his $20,000 defense defeated my $4,500 rush, this game is soooooo unfair. Furthermore we have the same beaten excuses, I never claimed engineer was balanced, just like a lot of towers in this game are not, sounds familiar?
Also, you'll stop ecoing when they get a trap? That's not smart, let's just leave at that..
I'll be fair and give you a last chance of redenption to prove me I'm wrong, my game is working now, right now I'm still rusty and that's your chance to play a best of 3 match against me, I'll go eco, but, I'll only play on the maps I usually eco (Like I said in this very thread, ecoing on short maps is dumb), you can bring engineer and whatever tower you wish.
If you win the best of 3 I'll acknowledge your points;
If I win, I'll have recorded our matches, I'll post it on youtube, then I'll post on this thread to finish this argument once for all (I already screenshoted all of this, so don't delete it if don't want to look like an idiot);
If you DO turn this donw, which is very likely you will, well, you're just proving my point, your convictions are not sustainable and it clearly shows you don't want to face me because you KNOW you're WRONG

[Lawlzer]

Автор сообщения: Fake Hero

"scizors", and you still complain when people call you a kid, english is not my main language and even I know how to spell it right lol
The fact that it took you 2 weeks to make up a reply just proof of your defeat, don't try making excuses, you were bitc-hing this entire week about the wizard being OP on the other thread, you sound like a triggered noob that can't win in a game and rages on the forums over it, I bet you BM too.
Oh, 3 bloonjitsus and a bloon trap defended my 3 boosted moabs :c It's so broken guys, his $20,000 defense defeated my $4,500 rush, this game is soooooo unfair. Furthermore we have the same beaten excuses, I never claimed engineer was balanced, just like a lot of towers in this game are not, sounds familiar?
Also, you'll stop ecoing when they get a trap? That's not smart, let's just leave at that..
I'll be fair and give you a last chance of redenption to prove me I'm wrong, my game is working now, right now I'm still rusty and that's your chance to play a best of 3 match against me, I'll go eco, but, I'll only play on the maps I usually eco (Like I said in this very thread, ecoing on short maps is dumb), you can bring engineer and whatever tower you wish.
If you win the best of 3 I'll acknowledge your points;
If I win, I'll have recorded our matches, I'll post it on youtube, then I'll post on this thread to finish this argument once for all (I already screenshoted all of this, so don't delete it if don't want to look like an idiot);
If you DO turn this donw, which is very likely you will, well, you're just proving my point, your convictions are not sustainable and it clearly shows you don't want to face me because you KNOW you're WRONG

+1
All points agreed with, I'll offer the same options (I've been grounded for nearly 2 weeks, so I haven't played any BTD)
only thing is, I haven't taken screenshots =P I can also record and upload on YT.

[Random™?]

Автор сообщения: Fake Hero

"scizors", and you still complain when people call you a kid, english is not my main language and even I know how to spell it right lol
The fact that it took you 2 weeks to make up a reply just proof of your defeat, don't try making excuses, you were bitc-hing this entire week about the wizard being OP on the other thread, you sound like a triggered noob that can't win in a game and rages on the forums over it, I bet you BM too.
Oh, 3 bloonjitsus and a bloon trap defended my 3 boosted moabs :c It's so broken guys, his $20,000 defense defeated my $4,500 rush, this game is soooooo unfair. Furthermore we have the same beaten excuses, I never claimed engineer was balanced, just like a lot of towers in this game are not, sounds familiar?
Also, you'll stop ecoing when they get a trap? That's not smart, let's just leave at that..
I'll be fair and give you a last chance of redenption to prove me I'm wrong, my game is working now, right now I'm still rusty and that's your chance to play a best of 3 match against me, I'll go eco, but, I'll only play on the maps I usually eco (Like I said in this very thread, ecoing on short maps is dumb), you can bring engineer and whatever tower you wish.
If you win the best of 3 I'll acknowledge your points;
If I win, I'll have recorded our matches, I'll post it on youtube, then I'll post on this thread to finish this argument once for all (I already screenshoted all of this, so don't delete it if don't want to look like an idiot);
If you DO turn this donw, which is very likely you will, well, you're just proving my point, your convictions are not sustainable and it clearly shows you don't want to face me because you KNOW you're WRONG

youre just dense.. youre correcting spelling. that in itself shows that you DO NOT HAVE A POINT OF ARGUEMENT.. if you didnt read one of the later lines.. no tower... 0 ZERO. nada. none. get the point yet.. SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR OPPONENT SENDING YOU BLOONS... engineer player has 2.. possibly 3.. sources of income at that point. farm players already have 2 sources (unless they send moab+ and get it down to 0).. btw my point wasnt "his 20k defense defeated my 4500$ rush" my point was HE HAD 20K TO JUST ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ SPEND BECAUSE OF BLOON TRAP.. you have to pump some big money into camo bloons JUST TO GET THEM PAST IT.. it replaces itself instantly when picked up.. thats something else that should be fixed.. and "its took 2 weeks for you to reply".. i unsub'd from this discussion because people like you are just dense and refuse to look at the points..

points-
#1-sentries defend fairly well and are realitively cheap upgrades (not op. but give engineer really good early game)
#2- a few engineer can defend pretty well against general eco/natural bloons
#3-overclock can boost a tower for 60 seconds... with a 45 second cd. which means thats a tower thats perm boosted.
#4-bloon trap can suck up natural bloons and give money.. instantly destroying ceramics (kinda dumb)
#5-bloon trap can also be filled by opponents rushes or eco..keep in mind the engineer player can still build their own eco/farms while this is going on
#6-HUGE CASH ADVANTAGE ~ round 20-24. (bfb-zomg territory) and a rush of those alone will generally cause your opponent to stop ecoing (if the trap already didnt) to defend. and similar to farms.. keep up constant pressure. as long as bloons are going into the trap. youre getting quite a bit of money... look at what kinda towers it takes to defend r32..a few bloon trap and bad micro can defend that AND MAKE YOU MONEY. yes engineer falls off later in the game by lacking moab popping power.. but hey.. you have 2 other towers. bloon trap is FAR TO COST EFFECTIVE for being able to DEVOUR a rush... DEVOUR eco.. punishing eco really hard..

also. i like how you corrected my spelling. but refused to accept the fact that im correct.. the only other "counter" i can think of is dartling guns countering a cobra's bloon adjustment (keep in mind misdirect and offensive push still exist..
other than that. the game should come down to player skill and game knowledge. not just getting a 50/50 prediction and picking engineer against an opponent going eco.

when you can DISPROVE atleast 3 of those 6 points.. i might concider coming to an aggreement.
and as for the typical "1v1 me so i can prove to you how bad you are".. that doesnt prove your arguement. if you cannot put your proof in text. than its pointless. ive beaten engie players while using eco. im not saying its impossible. but if the engie player is semi competant. theyll know they have the advantage and use it.

[I'm bad at games :(]

Wtf has this thread become lel

Are polarizing matchups good? No. But eco can be beaten without engie and there are steps the eco player can take to minimize the value from the bloon traps like sending lower rbe bloon sends. Map design is also important since bloon trap is terrible on 2-way maps like rally and A-Game.

Engie being good early is irrelevant there are lots of towers that are good early and bad late and vice versa. Overclock is irrelevant because there are only a few towers worth overclocking (apache, rod, temple) and the most popular engie strat ninja farm engie doesn’t use overclock since it’s more expensive than getting a second jitsu.

The only use engie has is bloon trap and it’s not helping you vs hyper passive farm strats which are far more common. Every strat has strengths and weaknesses and will be favored/unfavored vs other strats.

[Random™?]

Автор сообщения: I'm bad at games :(

Wtf has this thread become lel

Are polarizing matchups good? No. But eco can be beaten without engie and there are steps the eco player can take to minimize the value from the bloon traps like sending lower rbe bloon sends. Map design is also important since bloon trap is terrible on 2-way maps like rally and A-Game.

Engie being good early is irrelevant there are lots of towers that are good early and bad late and vice versa. Overclock is irrelevant because there are only a few towers worth overclocking (apache, rod, temple) and the most popular engie strat ninja farm engie doesn’t use overclock since it’s more expensive than getting a second jitsu.

The only use engie has is bloon trap and it’s not helping you vs hyper passive farm strats which are far more common. Every strat has strengths and weaknesses and will be favored/unfavored vs other strats.

thank you for actually having some reasoning. but alas. my points still stand. there shouldnt be a way to take your opponents bloons and make money on them. bloon trap needs a rework. either that be ignoring eco bloons when it comes to being filled (can suck them up. but doesnt count towards the amount of money it gives) or giving me an option to raise my eco. without sending bloons..

there are only 3 towers that can directly give income without sending bloons (cobra/farm/engie)... psuedo 4th if you count a x/4 sniper.... farms are meta because farms are really really good. personally i think the sell price needs to be nerfed (say 10-15%) so players cant use just a farm sell as a bandaid for them being unprepared... cobra's have their ultility. but are terrible as a solo income, and have pretty poor popping power.. (bloon adjustment and misredect are their main attributes) ... engie is effectively a better cobra (not counting bloon adjustment spam). it can counter bloon rushes. similar to misdirect sending a bfb back, turning your opponents offense in your favor. or sending a natural bfb to your opponenet for added pressure.. but the cobra doesnt gain money from that. bloon trap is the ONLY upgrade in game that can use your opponents send to gain money. while it being unique to engineer gives a reason to pick engineer over a tower that could possibly do it better.. the cost/effectiveness is completely out of whack. 3500 for bloon trap is absolutely insane.

cobras take 5 rounds to pay for THE 400$ UPGRADE ALONE.. farms can pay for themselves in a few rounds (depending on tier of course)... bloon trap has the potentional to pay for itself in a single round. it only takes 7 traps being filled to pay for itself. and the total cost of a t4 is among the lowest

[Random™?]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrlHUaFdprg listen to what he says about bloon trap in the first 2 minutes.