Vatu Cleanse

[Church.exe]

From what I have seen, the only (non-bait) post about Vatu is saying he is underwhelming and while I don't think he is "underwhelming" I do think he could do with a buff in regards to cleansing. Koga, who he is most similar to, has a 3 charge dash which also cleanses so giving Vatu some way of cleansing statuses would be good. Even stylistically, Vatu's entire shtick is that he is a ninja and can be wherever he wants without you knowing at the expense of having no high-damage abilities and relying on enemy manipulation. (his stickies ain't bad but they aren't amazing either) In contrast, koga pulls more from the colloquial "ninjas" in pop-culture which sees them as experts in CQB combat and much less reliant on manipulation and stealth. Because of this, it doesn't really make sense that the pop-culture, action movie, "ninja" would be able to shed effects such as reveal but the actual champion based on enemy manipulation couldn't. I'm not saying to necessarily give his normal dash shed, but giving him at least some way to shed statuses would be good, not just for balancing him but also thematically. (You COULD also do a passive which makes him impossible to reveal or something, much like how lex has a passive retrib target, but that seems a bit OP to me, could be wrong but a character which literally cannot be revealed seems like that might get some backlash, even if, once again, it makes sense.)

[chocomilo]

The thing is giving vatu cleanse ability to dash is not a good idea cuz he can dash every second lol. That will be hell of OP.

[Church.exe]

Originally posted by chocomilo:

The thing is giving vatu cleanse ability to dash is not a good idea cuz he can dash every second lol. That will be hell of OP.

1 : so can koga
2 : I specifically said his dash may be OP
3 : compared TO koga, he can dash LESS because he has much less cool down reduction talents/cards. A good koga could literally get 75% of their energy back with each kill using Gale Storm and Adrenaline Junkie just gives him more energy.
4 : Vatu uses most of his dashes getting to his target and flanking, not on the kill itself. Vatu can get high burst using his ambush so using his dash in combat, at all, is honestly idiotic. From someone who has literally gotten natural disaster as Vatu, you don't dash to your targets, even in an active firefight, a dash is highly trackable compared to his ambush for battle repositioning.
5 : you state zero reasons why Vatu having a cleanse is any different to Koga having a cleanse which was literally one of my main points and, as stated in point 3, if anything Vatu can cleanse LESS. Now there IS more nuance than just "he dash less" but that isn't bloody relevant because I specifically said whether or not it was his dash is irrelevant but in thematics, balance, and precedent him having SOME method of cleansing made sense.

[LavaAvalon]

Originally posted by Church.exe:

Originally posted by chocomilo:

The thing is giving vatu cleanse ability to dash is not a good idea cuz he can dash every second lol. That will be hell of OP.

1 : so can koga
2 : I specifically said his dash may be OP
3 : compared TO koga, he can dash LESS because he has much less cool down reduction talents/cards. A good koga could literally get 75% of their energy back with each kill using Gale Storm and Adrenaline Junkie just gives him more energy.
4 : Vatu uses most of his dashes getting to his target and flanking, not on the kill itself. Vatu can get high burst using his ambush so using his dash in combat, at all, is honestly idiotic. From someone who has literally gotten natural disaster as Vatu, you don't dash to your targets, even in an active firefight, a dash is highly trackable compared to his ambush for battle repositioning.
5 : you state zero reasons why Vatu having a cleanse is any different to Koga having a cleanse which was literally one of my main points and, as stated in point 3, if anything Vatu can cleanse LESS. Now there IS more nuance than just "he dash less" but that isn't bloody relevant because I specifically said whether or not it was his dash is irrelevant but in thematics, balance, and precedent him having SOME method of cleansing made sense.

the thing is: koga has a energy bar for every single action that is not the basic attack, so if he dashes to rid of the effects he would not make enough distance to hide himself or anything, vatu can just dash up, left, right, down, etc. while koga need to be in a single direction, Vatu even gets to keep the momentum from the dash, so making him able to remove all effects with his dash (while also having an talent that removes 15% cooldown every time he shoots his weapons basically) would make him invulnerable against moji, fernando and any heroes that use efffects as dps source, if koga dashes once to rid of the effects, you can predict where he will land, if he dashes again to avoid death in arrival, he will have lost almost all his energy, then he will either finish the chain with another dash, using everything he had to deal with the effect or die fighting with almost no energy, unless there is someone with less than 800hp or something
if vatu did the same, he would dash, attack, bomb, dash again attack, teleport, attack, dash, attack, and boom his cooldown for dash is over and he can either repeat or retreat almost instantly because he is unpredictable, although, if the shed was related to shed, it would be understandable, he would need to charge someone, giving him a somehow predictable action once with a status effect

[Church.exe]

Originally posted by anounimous0:

Originally posted by Church.exe:

1 : so can koga
2 : I specifically said his dash may be OP
3 : compared TO koga, he can dash LESS because he has much less cool down reduction talents/cards. A good koga could literally get 75% of their energy back with each kill using Gale Storm and Adrenaline Junkie just gives him more energy.
4 : Vatu uses most of his dashes getting to his target and flanking, not on the kill itself. Vatu can get high burst using his ambush so using his dash in combat, at all, is honestly idiotic. From someone who has literally gotten natural disaster as Vatu, you don't dash to your targets, even in an active firefight, a dash is highly trackable compared to his ambush for battle repositioning.
5 : you state zero reasons why Vatu having a cleanse is any different to Koga having a cleanse which was literally one of my main points and, as stated in point 3, if anything Vatu can cleanse LESS. Now there IS more nuance than just "he dash less" but that isn't bloody relevant because I specifically said whether or not it was his dash is irrelevant but in thematics, balance, and precedent him having SOME method of cleansing made sense.

the thing is: koga has a energy bar for every single action that is not the basic attack, so if he dashes to rid of the effects he would not make enough distance to hide himself or anything, vatu can just dash up, left, right, down, etc. while koga need to be in a single direction, Vatu even gets to keep the momentum from the dash, so making him able to remove all effects with his dash (while also having an talent that removes 15% cooldown every time he shoots his weapons basically) would make him invulnerable against moji, fernando and any heroes that use efffects as dps source, if koga dashes once to rid of the effects, you can predict where he will land, if he dashes again to avoid death in arrival, he will have lost almost all his energy, then he will either finish the chain with another dash, using everything he had to deal with the effect or die fighting with almost no energy, unless there is someone with less than 800hp or something
if vatu did the same, he would dash, attack, bomb, dash again attack, teleport, attack, dash, attack, and boom his cooldown for dash is over and he can either repeat or retreat almost instantly because he is unpredictable, although, if the shed was related to shed, it would be understandable, he would need to charge someone, giving him a somehow predictable action once with a status effect

your not only STILL completely misunderstanding how Vatu fights (he isn't, maeve) but you are also, STILL, assuming I am even saying to add it to his dash, which I, ONCE AGAIN, did not say. You also completely ignored all of my points regarding any nuance with its actual power as an ability, its frequency, or having a reveal-only cleanse. You ALSO made false claims about Koga's fighting style as well leaving out any and all environmental factors which a good Koga RELIES on, but you also completely ignored adrenaline junkie which can easily get you another set of energy in any combat situation. You also ignored the fact that he can regen his energy after a kill. Oh and the fact that he can get an energy boost when his health passes a threshold. You could, very easily, get 5+ cleanses in 1 1v1 fight and then immediately after get another 2 or even 3 by utilizing Gale Storm. Your only moderately correct point is that Koga's dashes are more predictable but this, once again, leaves out the nuances of environmental LOS obstructions AND the fact that Vatu doesn't use his dashes in fights nearly as often as Koga since Koga's makes him intangible during the dash allowing him to reliably get to cover quickly whereas with Vatu getting to cover isn't just uncertain but unlikely. So, basically, your only valid point is that the issue has nuance which, even then, you only get if your claims are steelmanned AND which I already admitted, several times, because it in no way debunks my point.

[razzie2210]

cleanse would be OP for vatu cus he is the most mobile champ so far.. his base kit is great already and his talents are good too aside from Omnipressence. what they can add with that talent is when you use it to enemy you should teleport behind them instead, not infront of them cus that what ambush is for. everytime i use ambush i feel like im eating there hits most of the time especially during 1v1s. and maybe add 2 or 1 more second duration so you can think properly how to use it cus personally im using it just for the sake of using it lol! other than that i think he is one of the best and balance champ or if anything a bit OP with the right hand. plus dont be shock if his Enveloping shadows gets nerf in the next update.

[Church.exe]

Originally posted by razzie2210:

cleanse would be OP for vatu cus he is the most mobile champ so far.. his base kit is great already and his talents are good too aside from Omnipressence. what they can add with that talent is when you use it to enemy you should teleport behind them instead, not infront of them cus that what ambush is for. everytime i use ambush i feel like im eating there hits most of the time especially during 1v1s. and maybe add 2 or 1 more second duration so you can think properly how to use it cus personally im using it just for the sake of using it lol! other than that i think he is one of the best and balance champ or if anything a bit OP with the right hand. plus dont be shock if his Enveloping shadows gets nerf in the next update.

His ambush is perfectly fine, its a movement ability which covers dozens of units in a near instant with little trajectory preview and no traceable line from start to end
He isn't the most mobile champion, like, at all, maeve out classes him in mobility several times over, if not from her normal abilities (which, yeah, are much better) and if not from her loadout cards (of which she has SEVERAL high-value speed boosts) then at least from her talent which literally resets her movement ability on each elimination.
Enveloping shadows isn't OP mate, its just not. Outside of combat it plain doesn't apply since, you cant just throw daggers at people without drawing attention to yourself and the gain isn't worth it and in combat the gain is so long term it has minimal impact. The only thing it does is allow you to more quickly get from one fight to another, it doesn't actually impact your ability to win any given fight that much since for one cooldown reduction you would need around 5-6 knife hits; ambush is useful but wouldn't be useful that late in the fight, not to mention its cooldown has a 4 second delay before it starts so the first 4 knife throws wouldnt even count towards it assuming you used it to engage the enemy; dash would only get a couple second reduction per throw, so by the time you throw enough to get one cooldown done, you already have a dash charged legitimately so unless over 5 seconds into any given battle you, at random, need 2 dashes desperately, didn't save any on engagement, (I usually always have around 2.5 charged when entering a battle) AND you can't make do with one dash and some skill, it doesn't do much; his bombs aren't practical in an active fight where your opponent knows about you, at least not at any range but in CQB you can finish the job in under 3 knife throws anyway so a talent which only has a noticeable gain after 5 isn't really relevant. Once again, the only people complaining about Vatu, are the ones who haven't played him, because if you HAD played him, even mildly, you would know point blank that ambush would be useless if it put you behind them, he is far less mobile than maeve, and his talent effects in combat and out of combat ability regen marginally with its only main benefit being shortening the time in between combat scenarios.

[Warpstrike]

The reason is because how they dash isn't the same. Shadow Step makes Koga ethereal which is why he sheds status effects while Dash doesn't make Vatu ethereal, it just makes him move from one spot to the next quickly.

Does Vatu need a cleanse attached to his Dash? No, and even if you take Adrenaline Junkie into account, a cleanse on Shadow Step would be tame compared to a cleanse on Dash especially if you take into account how his main attack works if you are at point blank range, have max Life Rip and can cleanse Cauterize completely between attacks. That, I believe, is why Dash doesn't make Vatu ethereal and cleanse status effects.

[LavaAvalon]

this guy just wants to prove his point and wants a overpowered hero, nevermind him
vatu does litteral 1k damage in a single shot, can use the dash so go any direction and can teleport away with his talent, he is more mobile than Evie, and she can teleport wherever she wants, if you want shed in his dash or teleport might as well give that to maeve's pounce or evie's teleport, you don't make sense my guy

[Kak Long]

vatu doesnt need immune when dashing,since he can dashing(x2 times far compare to andro) at any direction he want n no limitation on mid air or ground,if u asking for more,u only make he more op than he is now

[Church.exe]

aaaand the award for most illiterate community goes to, Paladins! Congratulations, you all failed to read my multiple explicit clarifications that attaching it to his dash wouldn't be the optimal route! It amazes me that people still wonder why paladins isn't getting any good updates when the community is incapable of presenting any logical debate other than "nah dat OP" and refuses to accept, even after it has been mentioned repeatedly, that the main thing they are arguing, is literally not relevant to the discussion. With that said if anyone would actually like to present an argument, feel free, but I'm done just responding with "I never said to attach it to his dash" to every single comment. If you have something relevant to talk about I'm more than open but at the very least actually read my post first.

edit :
prime example :

Originally posted by anounimous0:

this guy just wants to prove his point and wants a overpowered hero, nevermind him
vatu does litteral 1k damage in a single shot, can use the dash so go any direction and can teleport away with his talent, he is more mobile than Evie, and she can teleport wherever she wants, if you want shed in his dash or teleport might as well give that to maeve's pounce or evie's teleport, you don't make sense my guy

"Vatu does literal 1k damage in a single shot", yeah its almost like 1k dps is common for main weapons and Vatu only fires once per second making him average to even below average DPS wise. The people responding here have had nothing to say, and have only shown a complete lack of desire to improve the game. If you actually DO have something relevant to say or can bring something to the discussion, then I encourage you to do so, but if your just going to misrepresent reality and make inaccurate claims, just don't comment, your not helping the game, and your not helping yourself.

TLDR : If your going to lie and/or misrepresent reality to push a point, don't comment; I am done repeating the same points. If you actually have something relevant to say, please do, I literally made this discussion to discuss the balancing implications of this, but just yelling "NAH DAT OP" while misrepresenting damage numbers and/or the nature of various champions to push a point isn't that.

[Jimmy9003]

I personally think, that his dash is ok, very nice to use, unpredictable.
Also he has nice passive on them 60% DR. With good timing, most deadly attacks can be lowered down to 40% of max dmg, that is enough to win most 1 vs 1 situation. I believe he was made to be like that, quick 1 vs 1 kill, fall back, repeat.
I know some people may feel that he is underwhelming. I get that, but honestly, I like that they released not immediately "OP flank champion".. You know what I mean?

[Church.exe]

Originally posted by Jimmy9003:

I personally think, that his dash is ok, very nice to use, unpredictable.
Also he has nice passive on them 60% DR. With good timing, most deadly attacks can be lowered down to 40% of max dmg, that is enough to win most 1 vs 1 situation. I believe he was made to be like that, quick 1 vs 1 kill, fall back, repeat.
I know some people may feel that he is underwhelming. I get that, but honestly, I like that they released not immediately "OP flank champion".. You know what I mean?

That is the main reason why I was saying I don’t think his dash would be best. One thing that may be neat to see is a passive charge buildup like Furia or someone that works like his “gain 7% ult charge on dash every X seconds” although I’m not sure that would fix it balance wise. (so over time or by taking an action a bar would fill up and then the next dash after that bar fills offers a cleanse) Another way to balance it would be to require 3 consecutive dashes for a cleanse or something.