How To Fix Viktor

[«ßИс» Dr. Hammer [TOotH]]

Hello,

I've seen a lot of people complain about Viktor, but not a lot of suggestions on how to fix him. I hope this thread will help rectify that situation.

Here's a watered-down, strawman list of general complaints I see about viktor.

1.) He's too easy to play/master
2.) He's too powerful (Which is only really a problem because of #1)
3.) He's picked too often.
4.) Players who pick him tend to not be team-players, (Lone-wolf types) which is a problem considering #3.

Now, whether or not you agree with these observations, they represent several common complaints a lot of players have about viktor.

Now, to suggest ways of changing viktor to try and fix these problems.

These are ranked from worse to best, in my opinion. So if you're strapped for time, feel free to skip the first three.

Idea 1.)

Remove the 50 damage to the first 4 shots, and add it to the last 4 shots.

This would encourage users to empty their whole clip into enemies, and thus stay alive to do so. This also gives other players more time to deal with the threat before their health is completely drained.

For all other ideas, I recommend removing the 50 damage for the first 4 shots altogether, because it's kind of a boring bit of bonus damage that doesn't encourage much on the user's end, as the first few shots are usually the easiest to hit, provided you attack first.

Idea 2.)

Base damage of the rifle is reduced to 100.

The first 4 shots do 50 additional damage, the last 4 do 100 additional damage.

Similar to idea 1, but this creates a trough effect where the middle amount of bullets do less damage. This could both benefit new players and encourage skilled players, as well as potentially shake up the meta of "More bullets are better", by encouraging a smaller clip size for precision strikes.

Idea 3.)

Similar to idea one, but more complicated.

Have Viktor's damage start lower, but ramp up on quick consecutive hits, before capping out on a higher value.

This encourages accuracy, and also encourages skilled players fighting Viktor to deal with him quickly, or to find some way of interrupting his aim or pause his firing. And skilled Viktors to find novel ways of staying safe long enough to dish out the damage (Such as staying behind frontliners).

It could also be satisfying to new players, as they'd potentially get a lot of bonus dings for holding sustained fire, and who doesn't love those sweet, sweet bonus dings?

Idea 4.)

Reduce the base damage of viktor's rifle. But give bonus damage for shooting through a friendly sheild.

This would encourage the damage dealers to stick with the group, and make use of their frontliners. It would also encourage them NOT to be Viktor if there are no frontliners.

I don't know about you, but teaching proper team composition from an early stage is crucial for the development of new players.

This might be supplimented with something like idea 1, if this makes Viktor too situational. But I doubt it, as 100 damage a round can still deal wicked amounts of damage, considering his clip size, potential clip size, and firing speed. This can always be supplemented with some other bonus, like more health or higher-damage grenades. Which actually leads well into idea five.

Idea 5.)

Add bonus damage to grenades that do not touch the ground before exploding. This can be combined with previous ideas.

This would encourage timing the grenades perfectly, result in some wicked hail-mary throws, and futher increase the skill ceiling. The downside is that it wouldn't reward sick grenade bounces off of walls and stuff, but I think those are their own reward.


Anyways, that's all I've got right now. Feel free to post your own changes or ideas, it's what this thread's for.

Be Constructive, Be Civil.

[Alex]

Here's my thoughts on some where of the things will not work :

1. Idea 1 - probably one of the better points out here, but you didn't take into consideration the possibility of (good) flanks on the enemy team. As sneaking up behind enemy lines it's not a hard job, specially with Evies and Skyes, you'd be taking away some of the defense capabilities of Viktor - or call it, survivability chances - , because you might not even get a chances for you to empty your clip under flanks pressure. Taking into consideration other variables from a match (previously taken damage, necessity mid-reload while you're flanked, enemy's flanks perk build), it can be GG WP for your Viktor faster. Not that 50 damage per first few bullets will save you all the time, but I personally think it contributes to your chances at staying alive a bit more.

2. Idea 3 - not bad either. But what would it orobably also incourage ? People playing (very) safe, aka away from the objective and lone wolf styles (which you said it's already happening).

3. Idea 4 - I don't think being no frontliners will make people pick Damage champions -and Viktor- less, nor it will teach very much in terms of team composition (not that most people care about it anyway). Instead, he might end up being one and only Damage (and I know I am going very situational here - let's say it's you, Viktor, 2 Flanks and 2 Supports), which is not even doing as much in the field he is built upon.

As I said in many threads here (although most have no real arguments against Viktor), I consider that ever since damage drop distance got reduced in OB38 or 37 (can't remember), he's a relatively balanced character, that is doing what's supposed to do. Not a great anti-tank, but ok to do damage to most of the enemy champions, and not that difficult do be dealt with either by your enemy team's champions (flanks, mainly, but others can do too). I play Viktor usually when our other damage -if any- is more of a camper style (Sha Lin / Kinessa) and when I feel that the player using him/her won't help as much when it comes to capturing or pushing the payload. I sometimes do good with him, while sometimes I get obliterated.

Also I think while most of the complains identified applied in the past, some do not longer (2, 4) apply (as after his nerf I personally haven't seen so many complain-cry threads about Viktor compared to the time before the nerf). The fact that he's easy to play doesn't make him less vulnerable against opponents, again, granted they have an idea about the champions they're playing.

[Tentons01]

The problem isn't really the character anymore. It is the actual players, which unforunately isn't something you can fix.

[Oni]

Theres no need to fix it.

Players are the problem. They complain because they dont know how to counter or play.

[ShashKetchum]

after the previous nerf viktor is perfect, he cant do much damage from far out, he has to be close to do damage. the players who play viktor can be the problem but i dont see any problem with viktor at all.

[Toyfan1]

Originally posted by «ßИс» Dr. Hammer TOotH:

Hello,

I've seen a lot of people complain about Viktor, but not a lot of suggestions on how to fix him. I hope this thread will help rectify that situation.

Here's a watered-down, strawman list of general complaints I see about viktor.

1.) He's too easy to play/master
2.) He's too powerful (Which is only really a problem because of #1)
3.) He's picked too often.
4.) Players who pick him tend to not be team-players, (Lone-wolf types) which is a problem considering #3.
.

1) Thats the point of him. To introduce new FPS people to this type of game.
Thats why you play him in the tutorial.
2) He's damage. Has average health, and has average damage.
3) He's a free character.
4) That's not viktor's fault. thats the people playing him.

Viktor needs a stanima bar for his sprint, and his ult should not be returned to him if he does not use all missles. That'll balance him out.
Other than that, you're missing the point of the character all together

[Stein Grenadier]

People play in the FPS genre expecting assault rifles, grenades and a myriad of other modern weaponry.

Thing is, Viktor is the closest hero to have standard FPS gameplay, so people would play Viktor as they would in a generic FPS: Fast relocation, fast damage and placing importance in personal achievement rather than teamplay.

Only when they get acclimated do these players try other playstyles.

Viktor is really designed to be played like a generic FPS character- What with the constant reloading, aiming down sights to increase accuracy and bouncing/cooking grenades.

The fact that most people already played FPS games contribute to their 'skill' with Viktor.

[Misty]

Originally posted by SMURF:

STOP CRYING. YOU'RE JUST STUPID OR NOOB. VICTOR IS SO EASY TO KILL, GET FLANKS. IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY YOU CAN EASILY RAPE A VICTOR.

The irony of this statement leads me to at the very least hope you are making a joke. Flanks are a bane, not a boon. Slightly irritating to the enemy and exceptionally irritating to their own team who are left a player down while they go try to be the hero they'll never be.

Frontline/Support>Damage>Flanker. There is no jungle, we don't need a jungler.

[«ßИс» Dr. Hammer [TOotH]]

Originally posted by Tentons01:

The problem isn't really the character anymore. It is the actual players, which unforunately isn't something you can fix.

Originally posted by Angelos Hanshi:

Theres no need to fix it.

Players are the problem. They complain because they dont know how to counter or play.

Originally posted by ShashKetchum:

after the previous nerf viktor is perfect, he cant do much damage from far out, he has to be close to do damage. the players who play viktor can be the problem but i dont see any problem with viktor at all.

I'm sensing a pattern here.

Perhaps I was misunderstood, those "problems" I pointed out were problems other people had. I thought Viktor was a perfectly average hero.

Which is why I think he needs to be fixed. He's very bland, at least in my opinion. Not Cancerous, as the memes floating around here might imply, but definitly nothing special.

The root of this observation, is that I see very little difference between a good Viktor and a bad Viktor, other than their K/D ratios. I feel the things that seperate the skilled from the less skilled are more general things, like game-sense, accuracy, etc. Things that can apply to any hero.

My ideas were for the most part centered around raising the skill ceiling on Viktor, while still keeping him easy to learn for new players. Especially #4 and #5.

These would both reward skillful play (Such as supporting your frontline, or perfectly cooking your grenade).

So perhaps "Fix", isn't the right word. Perhaps "Improve" might be better?

[«ßИс» Dr. Hammer [TOotH]]

Originally posted by SMURF:

STOP CRYING. YOU'RE JUST STUPID OR NOOB. VICTOR IS SO EASY TO KILL, GET FLANKS. IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY YOU CAN EASILY RAPE A VICTOR.

Originally posted by PenguinInTheMist:

Originally posted by SMURF:

STOP CRYING. YOU'RE JUST STUPID OR NOOB. VICTOR IS SO EASY TO KILL, GET FLANKS. IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY YOU CAN EASILY RAPE A VICTOR.

The irony of this statement leads me to at the very least hope you are making a joke. Flanks are a bane, not a boon. Slightly irritating to the enemy and exceptionally irritating to their own team who are left a player down while they go try to be the hero they'll never be.

Frontline/Support>Damage>Flanker. There is no jungle, we don't need a jungler.

Gentlemen, please.

Leave the fighting in the game. This is a place for civil discussion.

Also, Smurf, I'm am getting the vibe that you're Jesting. If not, I would recommend re-reading my original post, as I myself have zero problem with how Viktor is played. (If anything, my problem is how certain members of the community percieve him)

I just think he can be improved to better differenciate a skilled Viktor from an unskilled one.

[«ßИс» Dr. Hammer [TOotH]]

Originally posted by Alexander26:

Here's my thoughts on some where of the things will not work :

1. Idea 1 - probably one of the better points out here, but you didn't take into consideration the possibility of (good) flanks on the enemy team. As sneaking up behind enemy lines it's not a hard job, specially with Evies and Skyes, you'd be taking away some of the defense capabilities of Viktor - or call it, survivability chances - , because you might not even get a chances for you to empty your clip under flanks pressure. Taking into consideration other variables from a match (previously taken damage, necessity mid-reload while you're flanked, enemy's flanks perk build), it can be GG WP for your Viktor faster. Not that 50 damage per first few bullets will save you all the time, but I personally think it contributes to your chances at staying alive a bit more.

2. Idea 3 - not bad either. But what would it orobably also incourage ? People playing (very) safe, aka away from the objective and lone wolf styles (which you said it's already happening).

3. Idea 4 - I don't think being no frontliners will make people pick Damage champions -and Viktor- less, nor it will teach very much in terms of team composition (not that most people care about it anyway). Instead, he might end up being one and only Damage (and I know I am going very situational here - let's say it's you, Viktor, 2 Flanks and 2 Supports), which is not even doing as much in the field he is built upon.

As I said in many threads here (although most have no real arguments against Viktor), I consider that ever since damage drop distance got reduced in OB38 or 37 (can't remember), he's a relatively balanced character, that is doing what's supposed to do. Not a great anti-tank, but ok to do damage to most of the enemy champions, and not that difficult do be dealt with either by your enemy team's champions (flanks, mainly, but others can do too). I play Viktor usually when our other damage -if any- is more of a camper style (Sha Lin / Kinessa) and when I feel that the player using him/her won't help as much when it comes to capturing or pushing the payload. I sometimes do good with him, while sometimes I get obliterated.

Also I think while most of the complains identified applied in the past, some do not longer (2, 4) apply (as after his nerf I personally haven't seen so many complain-cry threads about Viktor compared to the time before the nerf). The fact that he's easy to play doesn't make him less vulnerable against opponents, again, granted they have an idea about the champions they're playing.

I appreciate the time you took to write out this response. You make some good points, but allow me to rebuttle.

Firstly, with the exception of Buck, most flanks are not going to be a problem for a Viktor who plays with his team. Even if the damage were reduced to 100 per shot, and zero bonus damage, he'd still be able to take out 3/4 of the flank characters with a single, default clip and good aim. I think this problem is one that already exists in the game (as you said so yourself, the extra 200 damage isn't going to make THAT much of a difference), namly that a Viktor caught out is easy prey.

I don't think making Viktor stronger is the way to fix this. I think encouraging them to play with the rest of their team is.

Which is one of the reasons I want to replace the current bonus damage with something more intentional. I like the idea of shooting through friendly sheilds for a damage boost, because it encourages a Viktor to stay with his team. (While also having the side effect of encouraging frontliners to like him more, I know I'm dissappointed whenever someone does not make use of my shield). A Viktor trying to "Lone Wolf" his way to victory is going to be accosted by flanks, and I think he should be.

I also noticed you did not mention #5. This one's my personal favorite. Your thoughts?

[«ßИс» Dr. Hammer [TOotH]]

Originally posted by Toyfan1: The Keyboard Warrior:

Originally posted by «ßИс» Dr. Hammer TOotH:

Hello,

I've seen a lot of people complain about Viktor, but not a lot of suggestions on how to fix him. I hope this thread will help rectify that situation.

Here's a watered-down, strawman list of general complaints I see about viktor.

1.) He's too easy to play/master
2.) He's too powerful (Which is only really a problem because of #1)
3.) He's picked too often.
4.) Players who pick him tend to not be team-players, (Lone-wolf types) which is a problem considering #3.
.

1) Thats the point of him. To introduce new FPS people to this type of game.
Thats why you play him in the tutorial.
2) He's damage. Has average health, and has average damage.
3) He's a free character.
4) That's not viktor's fault. thats the people playing him.

Viktor needs a stanima bar for his sprint, and his ult should not be returned to him if he does not use all missles. That'll balance him out.
Other than that, you're missing the point of the character all together

I must apologize, there seems to be a misunderstanding.

It was never my intention to make Viktor more difficult to play, only more difficult to master.

I also wanted to improve how OTHER players percieve a Viktor on their team, by giving a Viktor player more options to be better team-players. It is human nature to judge a person based on how they look, as it's a player's nature to judge another player based on what class they pick. I want to insert some ambiguity here, so players will at least look at a Viktor and ask themselves "IS this guy going to be a team-player? Or a dead weight." Instead of the Guilty untill proven Innocent method commonly employed now.

Idealistic? Perhaps, but something we should at least try to achieve.

Hopefully, that settles your first point.


As for your others, I do not feel him being "Damage" or "Free" should have any impact on any of the points I made. (Perhaps you could elaborate? Or perhaps point out the line(s) in which I implied otherwise?)

And as for "How people play Viktor", I feel that this is, at least in part, a result of how the class is designed. He has a low barrier to entry (Compared to some heros like Bomb King), but he also has a lower skill ceiling. I feel the other damage heros allow for more skillful play, and I want Viktor to have that capability as well. I feel the current design limits the level of skill a person can exhibit, but if you've got evidence of some mind-blowing Viktor play, then do enlighten me.

[«ßИс» Dr. Hammer [TOotH]]

Originally posted by Stein Grenadier:

People play in the FPS genre expecting assault rifles, grenades and a myriad of other modern weaponry.

Thing is, Viktor is the closest hero to have standard FPS gameplay, so people would play Viktor as they would in a generic FPS: Fast relocation, fast damage and placing importance in personal achievement rather than teamplay.

Only when they get acclimated do these players try other playstyles.

Viktor is really designed to be played like a generic FPS character- What with the constant reloading, aiming down sights to increase accuracy and bouncing/cooking grenades.

The fact that most people already played FPS games contribute to their 'skill' with Viktor.

Yes, but I do not see how having more options for a Viktor to demonstrate more skill is a problem (Such as by rewarding team-play or a perfectly cooked grenade toss). It is not like my suggestions would put a stop to the current playstyle (And if they do, that certainly was not my intention), but to allow for a better transition to new playstyles.

I want there to be more depth, more diversity, to how a person can play Viktor.

[Shifty Mario]

Imo, Viktor shouldn't have aim down sights. From what I've seen, almost no one does hip fire. Might as well remove it and give something else instead. Of course buff hip fire while at it.

[Delsin]

Problems with Viktor that the devs won't admit:

1) He does too much damage. He can kill the enemy team in a matter of seconds just firing his primary.
2) He does too much damage from too far a range. Even WITH the recent range nerf, he still does too much damage. The fall off damage for his bullet is what, 5-10?
3) He fires and reloads WAY too fast, which supports point 1.
4) UNLIMTED SPRINT
5) If his ult gets interupted it gets returned to him
6) NO RECOIL
7) NO WEAPON SPRAY

The devs say "Oh, he IS balanced!" but hes not, the entire Paladins communtiy knows he's not and the only people who don't want him nerfed are those who play him.
inb4 someone replies they dont play him and dont want him nerfed. Sure you don't.

[Alex]

Originally posted by Delsin53:

Problems with Viktor that the devs won't admit:

1) He does too much damage. He can kill the enemy team in a matter of seconds just firing his primary.
2) He does too much damage from too far a range. Even WITH the recent range nerf, he still does too much damage. The fall off damage for his bullet is what, 5-10?
3) He fires and reloads WAY too fast, which supports point 1.
4) UNLIMTED SPRINT
5) If his ult gets interupted it gets returned to him
6) NO RECOIL
7) NO WEAPON SPRAY

The devs say "Oh, he IS balanced!" but hes not, the entire Paladins communtiy knows he's not and the only people who don't want him nerfed are those who play him.
inb4 someone replies they dont play him and dont want him nerfed. Sure you don't.

Guess who doesn't know who counter Viktor at all.
Point 1 and 2, total invalid, he doesn't have nothing near that damage potential you cry about. Most of the times now you got to focus 1 enemy champion which would probably be the tank. Camping somewhere on roofs won't help like in the past, since you will BARELY do any considerable damage from your range (not even Aggression helps a lot, thus you gotta get closer.
Point 6 & 7 : There is a weapon recoil pattern. The fact that you can't notice it it's solely your problem. To get to no recoil (only when aiming down the sights) you got to level a card to level 4, which means sacrificing burn card points from other cards.
Point 4 : Unlimited =/= Overpowered. Sure you can chase down some of the champions but at the same time you can't escape that easily against decent flanks or flying Drogozes.
Point 5 : You have to be a total noob not to see an enemy Viktor ultimate coming; apart from damage (granted it hits anything), that can be countered with a shield, it does not even have secondary effects like some of the other champion's ulti.
Point 3 : Guess what an Assault Riffle is supposed to do.

TL;DR : Get good and learn to counter him if he's that much of a threat to you in the game (although I think it happens that often); there's many champions which can go toe to toe with Viktor by themselves or contribute with good damage numbers on his elimination.