Visual Pinball 10 The Holy Grail?

[mikjames]

Just tried out Tales of the Arabian Nights in Visual Pinball 10, comparing it to Zen/Fx3. Visually there really is no comparison, Visual Pinball graphics just wipe the floor with Fx3 when it comes to recreating all the fine details of the original tables. Where Zen seems to have remodeled the 3d objects, cutting down the detail and applying a cartoonish style to it, Visual Pinball scans in the 3d models and textures and presents them in stunning detail. Physics are a bit of mixed bag in Visual Pinball, with some tables more heavily scripted/customized than others, but Zen's physics are kind of a mixed bag right now as well.

Visual pinball used to be a joke just 5 or so years ago, but VPX has really pushed the limits for graphical detail. It's amazing what a dedicated group of people can do for 0$. Zen might want to up their game if they are targeting the virtual pinball cabinet crowd, if they can't compete with free offerings, they might have a problem. If I were in their shoes I'd focus less on the Williams stuff, and fix the ball physics on their original tables. Their original tables are well crafted and unique, but the featherweight ball physics makes them nearly unplayable.

[Full_Throttle_F14]

There is a video called Virtual Pinball: "Software" Essentials - START HERE" that is quite comprehensive for starting up vpx with all the bells and whistles done by Terryred explaining basically everything that is available for the VPX software and what most of the components in the software is for. It's long and in a multi part series but well worth the watch. Granted if you find yourself frustrated with the process you can just simply use the latest vpx installer and pick your tables and roms of which most tables will play just fine, but some will need updates or upgrades to your vpx install.

[Chelle]

There was a time some moons ago when I would spend ages tweaking various emulators but now nope.

I am 56 years old and I like comfort in the clothes I wear and the entertainment I play.

I can understand tho but just my penneth.

[PinStratsDan]

Copying my own comment on page 1 as it deals with all the aspects discussed regarding Zen's approach compared to VPX ;-)

I'm an Xbox One player, so can't play VPX. I would love to though as tables such as The Flintstones and Tales of the Arabian Nights both look and play stunningly from the footage I've seen.

Zen though also take all the tables apart (usually their own or sourced from the Budapest Pinball Museum) and scan in the parts. My guess is that theirs don't look as realistic potentially because of; their proprietary game engine, the scalability of the game across platforms i.e. I can play it at 60 fps on my 5 year old 13" Macbook Pro or on my IPad, and you can change views compared to the set viewpoint of VPX.

Zen confirmed in their latest appearance on the Blahcade Pinball Podcast that they are in the process of implementing their latest Williams Physics into all their existing tables and that they are also preparing for the release of the new Playstation and Xbox consoles. There was a big jump in visual fidelity and in framerate (from 30 to 60 fps) from Pinball FX2 to Pinball FX3, so I'm hoping for the same from FX3 to FX4 (which might only happen at a much later stage).

It also appears that Zen makes a lot of their money from their mobile platforms (gathered from that Blahcade podcast), so unfortunately the virtual cabinet crowd is not their main priority.

[Mal]

Originally posted by PinStratsDan:

Copying my own comment on page 1 as it deals with all the aspects discussed regarding Zen's approach compared to VPX ;-)

I'm an Xbox One player, so can't play VPX. I would love to though as tables such as The Flintstones and Tales of the Arabian Nights both look and play stunningly from the footage I've seen.

Zen though also take all the tables apart (usually their own or sourced from the Budapest Pinball Museum) and scan in the parts. My guess is that theirs don't look as realistic potentially because of; their proprietary game engine, the scalability of the game across platforms i.e. I can play it at 60 fps on my 5 year old 13" Macbook Pro or on my IPad, and you can change views compared to the set viewpoint of VPX.

Zen confirmed in their latest appearance on the Blahcade Pinball Podcast that they are in the process of implementing their latest Williams Physics into all their existing tables and that they are also preparing for the release of the new Playstation and Xbox consoles. There was a big jump in visual fidelity and in framerate (from 30 to 60 fps) from Pinball FX2 to Pinball FX3, so I'm hoping for the same from FX3 to FX4 (which might only happen at a much later stage).

It also appears that Zen makes a lot of their money from their mobile platforms (gathered from that Blahcade podcast), so unfortunately the virtual cabinet crowd is not their main priority.

Many of the VPX authors are building the tables based on machines that they have owned for 20+ years. They also feature scanned in objects and artwork.

You can change the POV to whatever you like in VPX (even full machine with backglass on a single screen), there is also a VR version.

There is a fantastic play against "computer opponent" Firepower table in VPX, a few tables that are designed with graphics and physics to simulate that they have been located on-site at an old boardwalk arcade since forever, and many other unique things you can only do in the Fan created space.

You should probably get yourself a PC, it doesn't take much at all to run VPX on the desktop.

[PinStratsDan]

Originally posted by Mal:

Originally posted by PinStratsDan:

Copying my own comment on page 1 as it deals with all the aspects discussed regarding Zen's approach compared to VPX ;-)

I'm an Xbox One player, so can't play VPX. I would love to though as tables such as The Flintstones and Tales of the Arabian Nights both look and play stunningly from the footage I've seen.

Zen though also take all the tables apart (usually their own or sourced from the Budapest Pinball Museum) and scan in the parts. My guess is that theirs don't look as realistic potentially because of; their proprietary game engine, the scalability of the game across platforms i.e. I can play it at 60 fps on my 5 year old 13" Macbook Pro or on my IPad, and you can change views compared to the set viewpoint of VPX.

Zen confirmed in their latest appearance on the Blahcade Pinball Podcast that they are in the process of implementing their latest Williams Physics into all their existing tables and that they are also preparing for the release of the new Playstation and Xbox consoles. There was a big jump in visual fidelity and in framerate (from 30 to 60 fps) from Pinball FX2 to Pinball FX3, so I'm hoping for the same from FX3 to FX4 (which might only happen at a much later stage).

It also appears that Zen makes a lot of their money from their mobile platforms (gathered from that Blahcade podcast), so unfortunately the virtual cabinet crowd is not their main priority.

Many of the VPX authors are building the tables based on machines that they have owned for 20+ years. They also feature scanned in objects and artwork.

You can change the POV to whatever you like in VPX (even full machine with backglass on a single screen), there is also a VR version.

There is a fantastic play against "computer opponent" Firepower table in VPX, a few tables that are designed with graphics and physics to simulate that they have been located on-site at an old boardwalk arcade since forever, and many other unique things you can only do in the Fan created space.

You should probably get yourself a PC, it doesn't take much at all to run VPX on the desktop.

I don't argue with any of the virtues of VPX... I would love to have it and will at some point. My main point though is that Zen is not building the game just for one operating system. As such they build the game to be scalable across platforms of various processing power etc. and as a result take decisions on visual fidelity etc. based on that. I can play Zen Pinball 2, which has all the newest Zen tables, including the Williams tables at 60 fps on my 5 year old Macbook Pro at 60 fps. I can play TPA (I don't own all the tables) also at 60 fps on my Mac. VPX works (via Wine) but chugs along badly, and that is at the lowest graphic settings etc.

[Mal]

Originally posted by PinStratsDan:

Originally posted by Mal:

Many of the VPX authors are building the tables based on machines that they have owned for 20+ years. They also feature scanned in objects and artwork.

You can change the POV to whatever you like in VPX (even full machine with backglass on a single screen), there is also a VR version.

There is a fantastic play against "computer opponent" Firepower table in VPX, a few tables that are designed with graphics and physics to simulate that they have been located on-site at an old boardwalk arcade since forever, and many other unique things you can only do in the Fan created space.

You should probably get yourself a PC, it doesn't take much at all to run VPX on the desktop.

I don't argue with any of the virtues of VPX... I would love to have it and will at some point. My main point though is that Zen is not building the game just for one operating system. As such they build the game to be scalable across platforms of various processing power etc. and as a result take decisions on visual fidelity etc. based on that. I can play Zen Pinball 2, which has all the newest Zen tables, including the Williams tables at 60 fps on my 5 year old Macbook Pro at 60 fps. I can play TPA (I don't own all the tables) also at 60 fps on my Mac. VPX works (via Wine) but chugs along badly, and that is at the lowest graphic settings etc.

Zen builds the graphic and sound assets to be utilized on two platforms (they no longer build for VR). The Android/iOS game engine is not the same as the game engine utilized in the PS4,XBOX and PC/Mac. A new version of Zen pinball FX4 (or whatever it will be called) will happen because of licensing and ESRB digital store requirements, not them wanting to add more whizbang features.

You can play VPX (at more than 120 fps) on a 10+ year old PC, in fact, many pincabs do.

[Ronn]

Originally posted by PinStratsDan:

I don't argue with any of the virtues of VPX... I would love to have it and will at some point. My main point though is that Zen is not building the game just for one operating system. As such they build the game to be scalable across platforms of various processing power etc. and as a result take decisions on visual fidelity etc. based on that. I can play Zen Pinball 2, which has all the newest Zen tables, including the Williams tables at 60 fps on my 5 year old Macbook Pro at 60 fps. I can play TPA (I don't own all the tables) also at 60 fps on my Mac. VPX works (via Wine) but chugs along badly, and that is at the lowest graphic settings etc.

I disagree with your statement about visual fidelity. :)

It has nothing to do with platforms or processing power. If you want the level of graphics that you see in some VPX tables it's a matter of time spent, as I said in an earlier post some of the best tables are worked on for like a year by a 3D graphics professional while some of the others take less time but worked on by a team of very experienced and talented individuals. This is the true power of community projects and passionate people working on it.

For a company developing a game spending the same time on a single table it just doesn't make sense from a business perspective, with that said the graphics in PBFX3 Williams it not bad by any means, but it kinda is like comparing apples and oranges due to how much work it takes.

[SirQuestinghood]

I’m not real sure the point of this thread?

I have been around before Black left to sell cabinets under the Future name… and the whole cr*p storm happened between which virtual platform was better / had the better physics. ffs

Zen has always had a purposeful “Art” direction. It is something they have talked about for years and they have continued to have their fantasy aspect going into their WMS license.

I have always supported Zen’s fantasy decision… and I have been happy to play pinball that is NOT the same old 90’s ROMs we have been playing for 30 f-ing years.

I looked at those VP tables. They are quite nice. They are some of the very best examples from a catalog of thousands and thousands of tables that have been created over the years.

But why not enjoy both platforms… for both their strengths and weaknesses. Zen is not going to change anytime soon. In fact, I hope they go back to creating custom / new content. That is something I can support.

[mikjames]

Originally posted by SirQuestinghood:

But why not enjoy both platforms… for both their strengths and weaknesses. Zen is not going to change anytime soon. In fact, I hope they go back to creating custom / new content. That is something I can support.

I generally do enjoy both platforms, and even the android version of Pinball Arcade when I'm on the go. Everything has their strengths and weaknesses but there is plenty of room to improve Fx3. Assuming you haven't read my suggestions in the thread already, it mostly boils down to better lighting/graphical effects, and either picking one realistic physics model or allowing us more physics options for fx3 tables.

When free options are doing a couple of things better than fx3, why not point it out so that Zen can improve those aspects? I like the Zen original tables as well, but I'd prefer to play them with a metal pinball, not a shiny helium filled sphere, there's no reason they can't update the physics model on their original tables, or at least give the option to choose the new Williams style physics model.

[SirQuestinghood]

Originally posted by mikjames:

When free options are doing a couple of things better than fx3, why not point it out so that Zen can improve those aspects? I like the Zen original tables as well, but I'd prefer to play them with a metal pinball, not a shiny helium filled sphere, there's no reason they can't update the physics model on their original tables, or at least give the option to choose the new Williams style physics model.

Yeah ... no I get that and agree with you. I do hope for a more unified physics model on the Williams tables... and I think it would be awesome if they could go back and update the older custom tables.

I know that there were still wanting to work on their physics before the virus hit. Unless that has changed? I'd imagine it will continue after everyone is back at it.

[Asus]

Originally posted by mikjames:

The devs don't "need" to do anything, if it ain't broke they don't need to fix it. They aren't offering a paid product with a fancy ui like FX3 or TPA, they are offering a free and highly customizable solution for people with virtual pinball cabinets and iq's in the triple digits, some people will be left behind ;)

It is broken, and the devs do need to fix this sh*t if they want more people interested in their 'free' tables

If you haven't noticed there are not very many people who actually use VPX. People just want to play. They don't want to spend hours or f***en days downloading this and that, adding lines of code to this and that script, making sure this program has a shortcut to that program. Give me a damn break!

People like you are just too arrogant and narcissistic to see your s**t has serious flaws, and most don't want, or have the time to fix it. It has nothing to do with "IQ'.

So get off your high horse, and actually try to listen to the few people who actually use your broken, cluther f**k VPX software.

[mikjames]

Originally posted by Asus:

Originally posted by mikjames:

The devs don't "need" to do anything, if it ain't broke they don't need to fix it. They aren't offering a paid product with a fancy ui like FX3 or TPA, they are offering a free and highly customizable solution for people with virtual pinball cabinets and iq's in the triple digits, some people will be left behind ;)

It is broken, and the devs do need to fix this sh*t if they want more people interested in their 'free' tables

If you haven't noticed there are not very many people who actually use VPX. People just want to play. They don't want to spend hours or f***en days downloading this and that, adding lines of code to this and that script, making sure this program has a shortcut to that program. Give me a damn break!

People like you are just too arrogant and narcissistic to see your s**t has serious flaws, and most don't want, or have the time to fix it. It has nothing to do with "IQ'.

So get off your high horse, and actually try to listen to the few people who actually use your broken, cluther f**k VPX software.

I don't own nor have any affiliation with VPX. I merely enjoy using the software, both to play and tweak the wonderful collection of free tables. The software functions as intended, and they have no reason to placate the moronic masses, as they would gain nothing from making it more user friendly. People who "just want to play" aren't going to contribute anything of value to the community (i.e new tables or modifying/improving existing tables). Maybe if you find your way over to the VPin forums, and ask real nice, someone will take pity on you and point you toward the all-in-one installer, and show you how to drop files into folders. It's a wonder you can even use Steam or figure out how to participate in internet forums ffs.

[mikjames]

Originally posted by SirQuestinghood:

Originally posted by mikjames:

When free options are doing a couple of things better than fx3, why not point it out so that Zen can improve those aspects? I like the Zen original tables as well, but I'd prefer to play them with a metal pinball, not a shiny helium filled sphere, there's no reason they can't update the physics model on their original tables, or at least give the option to choose the new Williams style physics model.

Yeah ... no I get that and agree with you. I do hope for a more unified physics model on the Williams tables... and I think it would be awesome if they could go back and update the older custom tables.

I know that there were still wanting to work on their physics before the virus hit. Unless that has changed? I'd imagine it will continue after everyone is back at it.

They said they were working on the physics before CV? I hadn't heard anything about that.

[Ronn]

Originally posted by Asus:

People like you are just too arrogant and narcissistic to see your s**t has serious flaws, and most don't want, or have the time to fix it. It has nothing to do with "IQ'.

So get off your high horse, and actually try to listen to the few people who actually use your broken, cluther f**k VPX software.

Whoa buddy, it's a bit ironic that you are complaining about people and using language like this, you've become what you hate.

[WeirdZod]

VPX is great!! but is more "Simulator" and FX3 is more "Video Game"...

Maybe FX3 should make a better Backglass without external images, including official, interactive dinamic backglasses would be great.

But VPX is not a *** ***** broken software, maybe you are a useless person who doesn't know how to do anything that puts a minimum of effort.