Visual Pinball 10 The Holy Grail?

[mikjames]

Just tried out Tales of the Arabian Nights in Visual Pinball 10, comparing it to Zen/Fx3. Visually there really is no comparison, Visual Pinball graphics just wipe the floor with Fx3 when it comes to recreating all the fine details of the original tables. Where Zen seems to have remodeled the 3d objects, cutting down the detail and applying a cartoonish style to it, Visual Pinball scans in the 3d models and textures and presents them in stunning detail. Physics are a bit of mixed bag in Visual Pinball, with some tables more heavily scripted/customized than others, but Zen's physics are kind of a mixed bag right now as well.

Visual pinball used to be a joke just 5 or so years ago, but VPX has really pushed the limits for graphical detail. It's amazing what a dedicated group of people can do for 0$. Zen might want to up their game if they are targeting the virtual pinball cabinet crowd, if they can't compete with free offerings, they might have a problem. If I were in their shoes I'd focus less on the Williams stuff, and fix the ball physics on their original tables. Their original tables are well crafted and unique, but the featherweight ball physics makes them nearly unplayable.

[Ronn]

Originally posted by AcadDude:

I have tried setting up VPX a few times and no matter how easy it is to setup I get mixed results on if a table will even load. Some tables load and run. It took awhile to figure out which file went where. Then hit and miss on if a ROM file matched a table file. If all the files for a table were bundled together that would be awesome. Maybe I haven't figured out the logic of VPForums downloads? I will probably try again sometime soon and find that the Steam Pinball games are way easier to setup on a pincab than VPX. It lures me in with a frontend that looks like it will load a table then either it shows up rotated or errors out and then I have to google how to fix a download that has been downloaded hundreds of times so obviously its my fault. So I then realize once again that I am not worthy of VPX.

You can't bundle them that would be copyright issue.

[Snake]

I should not have opened this thread. Now I feel like a dunce for paying pretty good money for all Williams tables to Zen, while this thing exists.

How on earth is it that a company paying professional artists can produce something that is so obviously inferior to a free fan product? :(

[NightShadowPT]

Originally posted by Snake:

How on earth is it that a company paying professional artists can produce something that is so obviously inferior to a free fan product? :(

And that is where we obviously disagree...

Pinball FX3 is convenient and easy to use and setup. VPX is great, but you need to put in the time and it's not for everyone.

I myself, have built my own arcade cabinet, configured all my emulators (and that was a lot of work to get done properly) and I am still intimidated by VPX... too much hassle.

Pinball FX3 is quite good and most tables are better than their VPX counterpart. The ones that are not, well... maybe I'll get to configure it properly one day.

Cheers,

[Snake]

That's the point - VPX is a hassle because there's legal hurdles AND it's a fan project.

None of those issues stand before Zen, so there's absolutely no reason on good God's earth that a Zen table should ever look worse than a VPX.

[Ronn]

Originally posted by Snake:

That's the point - VPX is a hassle because there's legal hurdles AND it's a fan project.

None of those issues stand before Zen, so there's absolutely no reason on good God's earth that a Zen table should ever look worse than a VPX.

You're not factoring in the fact that TOTAN VPX was worked on by a pro in Blender for almost a year making it look amazing like that. That's the advantage of community projects, passionate individuals spending a lot of time to create amazing things, wouldn't make sense for a company to spend that much time on one table or feature. So all things considered Zen is not doing a bad job.

This come from someone who is active int he VPX community so no need to resort to name calling please.

The only thing I'd like to whip Zen about is the lack of general VR support.

[Snake]

Well, if Zen is going to settle for "decent" visuals, maybe I can settle for some other games to spend my actual, real-world money on, is all I'm saying! ;)

[Ronn]

Originally posted by Snake:

Well, if Zen is going to settle for "decent" visuals, maybe I can settle for some other games to spend my actual, real-world money on, is all I'm saying! ;)

Go a head I'm not going to try to stop you.

[mikjames]

Originally posted by Monochromatic:

By 2.5D, I don’t mean that VPX is using a 2D engine and mimicking a 3D look, I mean it’s using a 3D engine but the playfield is composed of 2D planes/layers.

Even the latest tables from a year ago were scripting ball drops from rails or higher layers. See none other than flupper’s 4K reskin of ToTAN, the ToTAN snake charm skill shot and the rails are on a higher layer and when the ball hits a hole or the end of the rail, it drops instantly to the lower plane.

I think it wasn’t until 10.6 that recessed kick-out holes actually have an effect on the ball. Any of the eject holes in general are scripted in VPX... when the ball enters, it gets teleported to a holding area that is out of the player’s sight, and when the ball is ejected, it’s (in all cases?) teleported back on top of the hole there with an initial velocity.

If someone can tell me of a recent VPX table where the physics are believable when a ball drops from one a higher area to a lower one, or when a ball is kicked out/ejected from a hole, let me know.

These are the effects that FX3 simulates very well with a 3D engine that does real 3D and not just layered 2D objects in a 3D engine. I love VPX and what the community is doing but nobody can tell me that, for example, VPX ToTAN’s skill shot has better physics than FX3 ToTAN’s skill shot. FX3 has the ball reacting to 3D spaces instead of layered 2D spaces.

VPX does a lot of things better than FX3: GI, flipper physics, pincab config, table/physics config. I’m not knocking on VPX... it is the overall pinball sim king but it has a lot of room to get even better.

So in TOTAN (my favorite table), does that difference on the skillshot physics actually make any real difference to gameplay? Is "seeing" the ball drop from one layer to another a gameplay feature or more of a "nice to have" graphical feature?

[mikjames]

Originally posted by punchobastardo:

Originally posted by Mal:

Oh well, I guess hundreds and hundreds of tables that can look and play exactly how you want them to just isn't for you.

yep, for the reasons Monochromatic, NightShadowPT, spyrescaa and Asus stated as well, let's quote Asus' for example:

Originally posted by Asus:

VPX on the other hand is complicated cluster f**k, especially for newcomers. You may find yourself bashing your head against a wall for a few days trying to sort out this broken mess. The VPX devs seriously need to revamp this convoluted train wreck, and bring it into the modern age. Don't get me wrong. Many new VPX tables look great. It's just that setting up VPX with all the different software dependencies is anything but user friendly. It gets even worse if you want to use PUP-Packs and B2S Backglass.

So as long as I'm not poor I prefer the convenience of FX3, even if I have to wait months for new tables, instead of the above mazochism.

The grapes are always sourer on the other side :)
The devs don't "need" to do anything, if it ain't broke they don't need to fix it. They aren't offering a paid product with a fancy ui like FX3 or TPA, they are offering a free and highly customizable solution for people with virtual pinball cabinets and iq's in the triple digits, some people will be left behind ;)

[mikjames]

I didn't start this thread to crap on Zen guys. The title "holy grail" may not be the best representation of my thoughts toward free options like VPX and Future Pinball. Zen made a creative choice with the lower detail playfield objects, but I think they can still improve the lighting significantly. VPX and BAM/Future both appear to have more advanced lighting effects enabled (global illumination, hbao, etc), so I think there is improvement to be made in that area of FX3, even if they don't improve the object details.

After playing around with a few more tables in VPX, the physics are honestly very inconsistent. On many of the tables the flippers feel a little too agressive compared to real tables, the only table I really like for physics so far is LOTR, which was ported from Future. I haven't tried any Future/BAM tables yet, but from what I've seen in videos the flipper physics appear to be more consistent than VPX.

Physics inconsistencies is also a big problem with current FX3 tables though. They have 3 different physics models going and none of them seem to be quite right. Their original tables have the worst physics by far, with a feather weight ball and zero attempts to emulate real physics. Williams Vol 1-3 have much better ball physics, but the flippers do feel slightly too aggressive. Williams Vol 4-5 are the best so far, but the flippers feel a bit too weak and unresponsive, and the bouncing flippers on release looks a little overdone.

Most of the time I still prefer the Fx3 Williams physics overall, though the inconsistent physics do bother me. The purpose of this thread is more to bring it to the attention of Zen that they are not alone in offering detailed recreations of Williams and other real life tables. I suspect Visual Pinball and Future pinball are only going to get better in the future, Zen should be aware of this and work to remain competitive. A premium price means a premium product. There is no shortage of fan feedback for Fx3, I just don't see a lot of acknowledgement of it.

[Ronn]

Originally posted by mikjames:

So in TOTAN (my favorite table), does that difference on the skillshot physics actually make any real difference to gameplay? Is "seeing" the ball drop from one layer to another a gameplay feature or more of a "nice to have" graphical feature?

It's just graphical.

Originally posted by mikjames:

After playing around with a few more tables in VPX, the physics are honestly very inconsistent. On many of the tables the flippers feel a little too agressive compared to real tables, the only table I really like for physics so far is LOTR, which was ported from Future. I haven't tried any Future/BAM tables yet, but from what I've seen in videos the flipper physics appear to be more consistent than VPX.

The reason for that is that physics are adjustable and it's up to the table author to tweak it, some tables have very good physics other less than so, the good news is that if you can tweak them yourself if you want to experiment and as more quality versions of tables are made the physics are usually improved as well.

I would say that physics in FP is a bit less realistic and a bit more floaty but some authors are making an effort for improved physics together with the BAM extension.

[Ronn]

Originally posted by Monochromatic:

I’ll look at other updated tables tonight. What a difference a year makes.

I remember waiting for 3 tables a while back... g5k’s Addam’s Family, flupper’s ToTAN, and knorr’s Cirqus Voltaire. They’re certainly visual treats.

Check out Flintstones, really awesome. :)

[Full_Throttle_F14]

Originally posted by Ronn:

Originally posted by Monochromatic:

I’ll look at other updated tables tonight. What a difference a year makes.

I remember waiting for 3 tables a while back... g5k’s Addam’s Family, flupper’s ToTAN, and knorr’s Cirqus Voltaire. They’re certainly visual treats.

Check out Flintstones, really awesome. :)

Flinstones, Indy 500 etc.. :)

[mikjames]

Originally posted by Monochromatic:

Originally posted by mikjames:

So in TOTAN (my favorite table), does that difference on the skillshot physics actually make any real difference to gameplay? Is "seeing" the ball drop from one layer to another a gameplay feature or more of a "nice to have" graphical feature?

Your thread was all about graphical and physical fidelity. This “nice to have” is as important as the your argument that the VPX community does a better job on the graphical details than Zen does.

Besides, I’m going to argue that it’s not just a graphical “nice-to-have”... the ball in FX3 is reacting to the fall. And while the fall takes a fraction of a second to complete, it’s more realistic than the instantaneous drop or disappearance the ball in VPX makes when it drops or enters a kick-out hole. If anything, your argument about the visual details and GI are the “nice-to-have” features.

FX3 has a lot of physics details that VPX can’t yet match. They are not simply nice to haves, they are essential to the accuracy of the sim.

Edit: Just fired up the latest VPX and flupper’s (and others who helped) 4K ToTAN... man, he’s done an amazing job on it. Maybe the ball isn’t being teleported anymore on the skill shot. It’s certainly not the same as jpsalas’s original ToTAN table which flupper used for his 4K reskin. But the table is even more amazing than when he released his first version of the reskin over a year ago.

VPX does everything I was criticizing. Table designers are starting to update their tables to use new VPX features/physics.

Some tables show the ball dropping into kick-outs (ball dropping in magic box in ToM), the genie magnet seems believable on ToTAN.

I’ll look at other updated tables tonight. What a difference a year makes.

I remember waiting for 3 tables a while back... g5k’s Addam’s Family, flupper’s ToTAN, and knorr’s Cirqus Voltaire. They’re certainly visual treats.

Yeah, things are only getting better with time. I guess there is a difference between graphical fidelity and graphical effects though. I was wowed more by the graphical fidelity, the high resolution objects and textures, detailed reflections and other lighting/shading effects. Evaluating it by those metrics VPX just looks more realistic.

[mikjames]

Originally posted by Ronn:

Originally posted by mikjames:

So in TOTAN (my favorite table), does that difference on the skillshot physics actually make any real difference to gameplay? Is "seeing" the ball drop from one layer to another a gameplay feature or more of a "nice to have" graphical feature?

It's just graphical.

Originally posted by mikjames:

After playing around with a few more tables in VPX, the physics are honestly very inconsistent. On many of the tables the flippers feel a little too agressive compared to real tables, the only table I really like for physics so far is LOTR, which was ported from Future. I haven't tried any Future/BAM tables yet, but from what I've seen in videos the flipper physics appear to be more consistent than VPX.

The reason for that is that physics are adjustable and it's up to the table author to tweak it, some tables have very good physics other less than so, the good news is that if you can tweak them yourself if you want to experiment and as more quality versions of tables are made the physics are usually improved as well.

I would say that physics in FP is a bit less realistic and a bit more floaty but some authors are making an effort for improved physics together with the BAM extension.

Yeah, I imagine everything is tweakable given the nature of the AIO editor/player, just haven't gotten around to it yet.