Black Rose outlanes seem MAGNETIC?

[AugustSecond]

Am I the only one who can't seem to keep the ball away from the outlanes on Black Rose? Every five seconds it seems the ball hits 'em. What am I doing wrong?

[OlDirty]

I also played that table yesterday and in my opinion it's too difficult compared to it's real counterpart. I would say keep the ball under control and shoot for things (ramps,...) where you know how the ball returns. So like this you can minimize the randomness.
But i also think this table is too brutal. In general the new physics engine is a bit "overdone" compared to all the real pinball machines i know (and i know A LOT). I also play with a controler which is absolute the same like the front of a pinball machine. So i don't need a joypad, but even then it's too difficult i think. Maybe it's also because of the lack of analog nudging which you can do on a real machine to save balls from drains.

[Metheglin]

9 Times out of 10 on ball save it'll end up coming back down the ramp and straight down the right outlane, been doing my head in.

[Lord Squeak]

it's certainly brütal in the classic settings. it would seem the ball is just too darn bouncy. (it bounces higher than on zen settings, which it shouldn't be doing)
But on zen settings it seems ok.
There is a problem with the physics on Black Rose and they will patch it. (they know about the bang backs being a thing), I just hope the bouncyness isn't missed. ;)

[tomi5577]

The tournament mode is unplayable. Bouncy balls, bad physics.

[Etchasketch]

I swear I had a ball change it's trajectory once.

[Mal]

Originally posted by Monochromatic:

Originally posted by Metheglin:

9 Times out of 10 on ball save it'll end up coming back down the ramp and straight down the right outlane, been doing my head in.

I complained about this in another thread... a plunger power between 5% and 99% (ok, I’m making those numbers up but you get the point), sends the ball up the ramp, and right back down into the right outlane.

A real life Black Rose table doesn’t do that.

The plunger is damn near useless because of this issue. I usually end up not even trying the skill shot and going for full power plunger shot to make absolutely sure the ball won’t drop into the right outlane.

Based on what I have seen Pinballwiz45b do in classic single player tournament mode, I'd say the table is tuned correctly. Also, this table requires you to nudge, nudge and nudge, and while the skillshot is repeatable when using an analog plunger or gamepad stick, I'll agree it is unforgiving and may not be worth the risk on anything other than the first ball.

Every real life Black Rose is different and I have played plenty that were just as drain happy as this one.

[Matt Beeching]

The only thing more stressful than Black Rose is... Party Zone!

Black Rose does seem slightly bouncy at the moment, is a live catch too much to ask for once in a blue moon? Plunger attenuation is quite restrictive and those outlanes are truly greedy - even when it appears you've landed upon the safer side of those rails.

I'd argue ball behavior is still slightly lacking variation, when you repeatedly play these tables patterns appear and the physics start to look a little canned.

Loving it regardless, keep up the great work.

[Mal]

Originally posted by Matt Beeching:

The only thing more stressful than Black Rose is... Party Zone!

Black Rose does seem slightly bouncy at the moment, is a live catch too much to ask for once in a blue moon? Plunger attenuation is quite restrictive and those outlanes are truly greedy - even when it appears you've landed upon the safer side of those rails.

I'd argue ball behavior is still slightly lacking variation, when you repeatedly play these tables patterns appear and the physics start to look a little canned.

Loving it regardless, keep up the great work.

I'd wager that the very nature of physics is "canned," but I do know what you are getting at ;)

An interesting tidbit of info though is that the classic physics include a random element to each ball/material calculation which is completely new for Zen, and maybe this needs to be refined some... but keep in mind, unless Zen decides to model rubber, solenoid and playfield degredation into the game, these tables are always going to feel the exact same way each game, and changing this may not be in Zen's best interest (I'm looking at the leaderboards and community).

[RedLightning]

Originally posted by Mal:

Originally posted by Matt Beeching:

The only thing more stressful than Black Rose is... Party Zone!

Black Rose does seem slightly bouncy at the moment, is a live catch too much to ask for once in a blue moon? Plunger attenuation is quite restrictive and those outlanes are truly greedy - even when it appears you've landed upon the safer side of those rails.

I'd argue ball behavior is still slightly lacking variation, when you repeatedly play these tables patterns appear and the physics start to look a little canned.

Loving it regardless, keep up the great work.

I'd wager that the very nature of physics is "canned," but I do know what you are getting at ;)

An interesting tidbit of info though is that the classic physics include a random element to each ball/material calculation which is completely new for Zen, and maybe this needs to be refined some... but keep in mind, unless Zen decides to model rubber, solenoid and playfield degredation into the game, these tables are always going to feel the exact same way each game, and changing this may not be in Zen's best interest (I'm looking at the leaderboards and community).

Perhaps with *any* change.. (and really .. there SHOULD be options.. if they are not going to give us the operator menu - and I hope they do- .. should disable leaderboard usage.

And if they are going to put the leaderboards first.. I'm not sure that would bea good idea.

[T-wRecks]

All of the WMS Classic Mode table / mode combos seem a bit too fast and more than a bit too bouncy, most obvious when out of control balls end up going further uptable than they should be capable of on Arcade. Not enough friction maybe? Dunno, but there's something in the models a touch off.

Beyond just wanting the simulation to feel right for myself, I worry that some people with no real life pinball experience may play the current Arcade mode, think "this is what real tables are like?", and run for the hills. As far as leaderboards, improving the model should be a buff, so no reset would be needed. With modern table leaderboards getting reset after every code revision, there should be more tolerance for resets, but I presume there wouldn't be.

And as an aside, I have no idea who the target audience for Tournament mode is. I'm currently top 10 on here for all 3 modes on Black Rose. I also play in IFPA tournaments. So I guess I'm supposed to be in that demo, but dealing with that crazy high pitch is awful. I haven't played any real locations that felt the need to go to that pitch. Just running the tournament adjustments would seem to be enough imo and make for a more fun experience. I'm not trying to come off so negatively; visually the tables are far superior to TPA, and the physics could be really great if dialed in the rest of the way. There's just still work to do.

[Lord Squeak]

Just in case the bounciness issue was lost in the other details.
https://youtu.be/frKxTmhDIPw
Showcasing how the bounciness differs from the different modes.

The rubbers seem to give too much feedback in arcade and tournament setting modes. While the single player mode behaves as expected.

Shown is the bounce when the ball comes out of the lock, and dead bounces over to the other flipper.
First in Classic Arcade mode , then in Classic Tournament settings , and finally the Single player mode, letting it bounce twice before turning off the FX, and bouncing once more. (this was done to exclude to possibility that the flipper model is to blame.)

I hope this helps the people at Zen to figure the problem .

[T-wRecks]

Yeah, stuff like that. Unnaturally high bounces, the ball not settling in some spots where it should be, some balls down/up the inlanes seeming to have no friction at all, etc. Obviously the Classic modes should be substantially more active than the default mode, but something's dialed a bit too high. Likely the rubbers as you said (and maybe just a touch more friction on the inlanes, although that could be from getting too much momentum off of rubber hits prior to entering I guess).

[Hodor]

black rose needs adjustments and update as mediaval madness 3th december update but great table. With 3d vision, it really feels like playing real flipper, it's enjoyable.

[Dunn Hill]

Real flipper doesn't have this STUPID Broadside-Cannon-Camera. Did anybody have an idea how to disable this stupid camera? I never hit the ship with that crap.

[Etchasketch]

You just disable the action cameras in the options. I think this is shut off if you use classic mode though. I hate all that animated crap they add.