William' s Tables seem to have UNREALISTIC speed

[Michelangelo]

Hi DEVs / Players:

After playing several hours with the Williams tables and alternate with any other tables of other packs I'm pretty sure by now that the speed of the ball on william's tables is UNREALISTIC fast on many situations, like bouncing or shooting...

I'm not sure if it is actually like the acceleration factor of the ball that goes way too much and keeps rising but there is a clear speed difference against other flippers.

Is it just me that I'm seeing this or anyone else reported it too?

[PinStratsDan]

The Williams tables can be played on two physics modes - Single Player and Classic Single Player. The Single Player mode physics is still the normal Zen physics and it has been confirmed that it is the same as for all the other tables prior to the Williams tables. The physics engine for the Classic Single Player is meant to simulate the movement of a ball in real life. As such it is significantly faster moving and the ball is in general much harder to control. The flipper angle is also shallower which also means the ball roll off much easier.

It is something that all Zen pinball only players have to get used to. Here are some tips and thoughts on how I approach the transition.

[aggies11]

Do you mean UNREALISTIC compared to the tables in real life, or just compared to Zen's other tables?

As cloda pointed out, these tables are trying their best to simulate the experience of playing the physical tables in the real world. Real pinballs can pick up speed, and quite quickly. I think I've still seen some occasions where ball velocity might be a bit too crazy (grazing blows with the flippers make the ball appear to teleport across the playfield almost), but that being said even in real pinball the ball can sometimes move so fast it's hard to follow.

My personal thoughts are that the physics are probably the closest to the best, most consistent we have seen in any digital pinball recreation to date. Which is an accomplishment. If I had to make suggestions myself, I'd say that perhaps the ball needs a bit more weight or momentum, I've noticed that in real pinball, the ball can often be a bit sluggish, where it bleeds of it's speed quickly, and alternates between fast/slow and then boughts of just floating around. But it's really hard to say without having two tables side by side seeing them in actual for a decent chunk of time.

If it's just about the comparisson to previous Zen tables, Zen's engine is still pretty good, I think their past tables are roughly compared to a physical machine that is set at a very low slope (low ball speed), with soft, sticky rubbers. But there does seem to be a bit of a speed limit set on the ball too. On the Williams tables, in normal singleplayer mode ("Zen Physics" if you will) I think they've tried to get it a bit more like the real world tables, but not quite as realistic as Classic Singleplayer.

[Michelangelo]

Originally posted by aggies11:

Do you mean UNREALISTIC compared to the tables in real life, or just compared to Zen's other tables?

Unrealistic as compared to reality and other Zen's tables heheh....

I was playing on both modes, the Zen physics mode and the Classic (arcade and tournament). Classic is I think more realistic but the ball still goes faster than reality.

I agree your description of the momentum of the ball, I remember that and maybe one of the differences could be the friction that the ball in real life receives and here this is not the same so the ball goes probably faster. Maybe there are other reasons too.

I understand that this is a new feature and I guess that it could be improved gradually, so that is why I'm asking.

I will look for more videos of real life tables to compare more closely, but for example in Getaway Table I can see a clear difference.

[aggies11]

Ah, then yes, I do agree with your observations. Although I do think it's a tricky one. It can be very subjective. I was just watching a pinball tutorial (Physical machine) video on youtube, and at one point I had to rewind a few times as I literally lost track of the ball, it just flew across the playfield left to right, even stepping slow-mo through the video file the ball moved so fast I almost thought it teleported. But seeing that it was from a real table in our physical world, it's not like I can complain about the "physics" heh.

This is something that can be quite tricky when you are doing computer simulations, especially about something like pinball which does have a lot of things in play. There can be a lot of small issues in the calculations (rounding errors, overflow etc) that can accumulate and add up to results that very quickly differ dramatically from reality. Zen's simulation with these Bally Tables are actually some of the most "realistic" that the community has seen in quite some time. I imagine at this point it's hard for them to tweak just one aspect, as it likely would have effects on other parts of the simulation. (eg. fix the ball speed, but then all of a sudden some shots become too hard to make etc, or the flipper angles change).

So unless we can see two machines playing side by side at the same time, it's hard to really hone in on what more improvements might be helpful. Personally I've always wondered if using a highspeed camera on a marked/graded playfield could prove useful for taking measurements about average ballspeed etc, and then using that to compare to the results of the game.

But that's a lot of work just to satisfy extra picky ones like ourselves :)

For the most part I've fairly satisfied with the experience on the tables, but I"m going to a barcade with a bunch of real physical tables soon, so that'll be the real test I imagine.

[Michelangelo]

ok I decided to record a video and compare directly against reality

There is a clear difference in speed just like I remembered playing this table on Real life arcades.
I uploaded this on my channel, recorded it on 60 fps and I tested the 3 types of gameplay

https://youtu.be/D_M_v1vi4AU

1st - Arcade Mode (Zen Physics) - 00:00
2nd - Classic Tournament Mode (Realistic Physics, Factory settings) - 09:50
3rd - Classic Arcade Mode (Realistic Physics) - 12:15

Check all the different type of shots and ball speed as there are clear differences.

That's right... all those missed shots and errors were carefully planned :P

And here it is a video of someone playing in REAL LIFE
And there is a great difference compared to ANY mode on my video.
BEHOLD THE TRUE SPEED (well at least this what I remember )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGDvxgebzaQ

I really wish that a DEV see this (Akos are you there?)

Do not get me wrong I love Pinball FX (specially in VR) but I just want to see this game improved because of.... all future AWESOME TABLES that I wish to see :)

Cheers!!

[PinStratsDan]

I guess I'm not seeing what you are seeing? Maybe it will be easier to see if you use the same view looking straight down on the table rather than the flat view that you are using?

Here is a video of the real table on a similar view you used in the game. Take a look at about 1min07 and you'll see a bricked shot screaming back to the flippers. Looks pretty damn fast and similar to the game for me ;-).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz7PDfH49fA

What do you mean with: "That's right... all those missed shots and errors were carefully planned :P"

and

"BEHOLD THE TRUE SPEED (well at least this what I remember )"?

[aggies11]

It's an interesting discussion, which is why it's so hard to get any consensus ;)

Re: Michelangelo - with computer pinball, we can change the camera angles. Which changes the size of the playfield on the screen. Technically this can change how we perceive the ball. I actually play on camera view 8(?) I think, the one that has much more zoomed out view of the table, for this reason, as the closer views I find too fast to follow. So now instead of the ball moving the entire screen in say 0.25second, it takes 0.75s to travel the same TV screen/computer screen distance, even though on the actual "table" it's moving a different amount.

As cloda mentions, real machines can move surprisingly fast, like in that video. Also the state of the physical machine (some of these machines can be around 30yrs old, and might be in rough shape, not well maintained, or not cleaned recently) can dramatically affect how they play. I just played a machien in a movie theatre a few weeks ago, that probably hasn't been touched since it was made (WWE machine so a few years old), it was so dirty that the ball moved painfully slow (also had a terrible tilt).

I like to use the PAPA tutorial videos (and gameplay videos) as good examples, as since they are tournament machines they are kept pretty well maintained. Since they are tournament they are also usually tuned for the fastest settings, (everything clean, waxed, brand new rubbers with excellent bounce etc). They should probably be the closest to what a simulation like zen is going for (I doubt the factor "dirt" into their calculations heh).

But even still, just watching those videos, there is somewhat of a gap between Zen and what the real world provides. The purists will say that's because there is no substitute for physical machine pinball, it's just impossible to get 100% right. But I'm more of an optomist and think that it's always possible to get closer and closer.

Just looking at Highspeed video with the really fast shot at 1:07, you'll notice that while it's a screaming fast shot that the video even has trouble tracking (in slow-mo it's still a blur), the ball bleeds off that speed rather quickly. From what iv'e seen with real pinball, the ball speed can change dramatically, and while it can be fast, it's never that fast for long. It seems to almost sluggishly go back and forth between slow floating movement, and fast laser like bounces.

If I had to make an analogy, I'd say in real pinball the faster the ball is moving, the harder it is for it to hold onto that kinetic energy and it disspates quickly (much like how freshly boiled water will cool off by say 10 degrees much faster than say water at 40c). With our current zen, the ball seems to hold onto that energy for much longer.

I think they can definitely take steps in that direction to help improve the simulation even better, but that being said, it's diminishing returns, it's a lot of finicky work to satisfy an increasingly smaller group of us the most picky fans :) So I get why they might think it's good enough for 99% of their audience and go from there.

Still at the end of the day, I am enjoying the spit out of these tables. If you still find it too fast to be comfortable try the more zoomed out views and see if that helps. It does slow down the "effective" speed of the ball in terms of our eyes tracking it etc. But you don't get as nice of a view of all the fancy toys on the table. But I guess a bigger screen is always the next step... ;)

[OlDirty]

In my opinion the only thing which seems a bit strange is the speed of the ball when it drops down in the inlanes , f.e. in Fish Tales or Medieval Madness. Then the speed of the ball is too high in the inlanes in my opinion. On real pinball machines it looses plenty of speed during that drop. Otherwise the speed doesn't seem too off compared to a real machine. On real machines it all depends on the condition of the pinball machine. Are the flipper mechanics new and strong, is the playfield clean and freshly waxed and how is the angle of the pinball machine. These factors all influence the gameplay. Also different flipper rubbers can make a real pinball machine play very different.
I play A LOT of real pinball (8 machines at home and i go to many pinball tournaments), so i can play plenty different machines and for example non of the 5 Medieval Madness i konw play the same. They are all very different to play even it's the same pinball machine. I played all the Williams tables in real live. So is the speed right or not seems to be a difficult question. For me it plays a bit like a new fresh waxed fast real pinball machine. Harder to control than a dirty slow pinball machine. A bit more weight on the ball would be nice, but otherwise it's damn close to the real deal.

[Michelangelo]

Originally posted by OlDirty:

In my opinion the only thing which seems a bit strange is the speed of the ball when it drops down in the inlanes , f.e. in Fish Tales or Medieval Madness. Then the speed of the ball is too high in the inlanes in my opinion. On real pinball machines it looses plenty of speed during that drop.

That example is what I saw first.
You could see it in the real table video that the speed is slower.

Another one could be quick loop with the upper right flipper that sometimes it goes to unreal speeds (not always).
I remember some shots in FX3 that I never pulled those speeds on real table.

But I have to say also that some shots I compared them closer and I could give you guys the benefit of doubt, and yes, the camera angle differences doesn't help.

In my opinion It seems to be like a friction issue or the weight of the ball like you mentioned too.
I really wish to read a DEV opinion here.