Williams Vol 4 - Flipper physics thread

[Akos]

Hi everyone,

now that Williams Pinball Volume 4 hit the scene with the new flipper physics, once again we'd ask for your input.

Love 'em? Hate 'em? What to fine tune?

Thanks

[VanAlphen]

In Road Show for upper left ramp you need a clean shot. The flipper has enough strength to make it after you've trapped the ball and let it come to a stop. It's not an easy shot though, takes a bit of practise. No idea if that's how it should be or not. I've been watching a PAPA video tutorial but I haven't been paying much attention to the left ramp.

[Toshiro]

I've been playing the new tables for a while now. I agree with what some before me have said, the flippers seem sluggish or weak at times, and the ball behaves in strange fashion. For example, you perform a succesful trap, killing the ball's momentum, but after a micro-pause the ball starts to travel upward alongside the flipper and falls off of it. That seems not realistic at all. Also, there's a feeling of randomness that wasn't there before, specially in White Water. It has happened many, many times that the ball comes down from a loop, starts bouncing off surfaces, and ends up draining without me touching it a single time. It reminds me of the time when arcade machines were just so hungry for your coins that the game felt lopsided against you.

Also, there's something in White Water that feels extremely off. I would post it on bugs, but I feel that it is part of the new phyisics. Now, I'm from Argentina, so growing up it was impossible to play certain tables. I just never got to see them, nobody imported them. I never played Whitewater IRL, so maybe what I see as weird was a feature. But, when you attemp to go for the ramp that is called Insanity Falls, I think, but the ball doesnt have enough momentum to overcome the "valley" of the ramp, it gets dropped from there and it is a sure and almost unavoidable drain. I have tried nudging and other tricks, but I think there was only one time I succesfully avoided the drain. And this is not Nudge Simulator 2019, also. So, there's that.

As always, you guys rock and I'm in awe of the quality and variety of this game, which for me it's 91 games rolled into one. I love pinball (in Argentina we call pinball "flippers" xD) and FX, for me, captures the same feeling, with many many advantages. Keep doing what you do, I'll keep buying and playing your tables.

[El Scorpio]

Originally posted by Maggot Brain:

I agree a little. The flippers seem a bit too bouncy/sluggish now. The rubber material on them also seems a bit exaggerated in how it reacts to a ball with a lot of spin, or how it spins the ball. I've had a few really weird moments where the ball has suddenly creeped up the flipper slowly and where a spin has been so strong that the ball reverses movement very suddenly on the playfield. Didn't look realistic at all.

I do think the flipper physics and tweaks have been positive in general but I feel like it's all gone a bit too far. Perhaps dial down the "improvements" a tiny bit and make sure spinning balls + rubber material isn't too drastic. Could be buggy certain angles though as it isn't consistent.

Also, perhaps dial down the randomness just a tiny bit? Seems like the RNG is a bit heavy handed.

This, flippers seem off...making the ball react in all kinds of weird ways.

[Shellrippr]

Originally posted by Shellrippr:

For Roadshow, I am unable to get the ball into the upper left ramp. I may get it 1 in 20, as it just barely makes up the ramp and falls back down. This makes it really hard to play some modes, get multipliers, and get to extra ball. Right ramp is a little better as I am able to make that ramp about 15 of 20 times. The flippers seem weak when going for ramps. Not sure if it is the ramp angles or power of flippers at those angles of attack.

I didn't realize that I was not playing the Classic Single Player mode for Road Show. In Classic Mode (near arcade physics), the left ramp in roadshow is perfect!, but it is hard to get to the right ramp. The angle off of the left flipper is off. Do not know if it is due to the flipper physics. Also, ball doesn't trigger the inlane switch after a ramp shot that diverts to the left inlane.
In Regular Single Player Mode (Zen Physics), the ball is very spinny. If you do a dead bounce, the ball has a tendency to bounce to other flipper,then up and hit the bottom of the slingshot (or roll almost all the way up the slingshot), then ricochet wildly someplace else.

[JLou56BZH]

Originally posted by frankkasten:

There's no question the flippers are sluggish and weak. I've played pinball for 60 years. There's big difference in the newer and older machines but the electronic machines, like and including these, have much more powerful flippers. I've tried all the modes on the three games and it's often necessary to "fling" the ball it get up ramps, which should not be the case. Also, the added bounce in tournament mode makes it's almost impossible to catch and cradle the ball. Real machines differ in this and all other aspects but sluggish, weak flippers and excessive bounce exceed normal differences.

I'am totally agree with you... Flipper are not realistic.. EOS and bounce are only realistic when you see it over video..Really it's an illusion... I have real fish tales and Stargate.. it's not like PBFX3 vol4 physics

[punchobastardo]

Flippers are "not realistic" now that you at last can do live catches and drop catches the exact way you do in real tables and they were previously (Vol.1-3) were you couldn't ever do it? Also keep in mind we are talking about arcade and tournament setup physics since we want the digital recreation to be as realistic as it can get, not about any fake & unreal physics made for the "casual Zen fantasy" crowd, these can be anything as long it stays easy, slow and casual, it doesn't matter.

[Mb]

You are exaggerating. It was perfectly possible to do live catches and drop catches before.. it wasn't even all that difficult.

What makes it all slightly unrealistic is that some of these techniques are now easier than ever before.. I'd even say unrealistically easy (live catch) due to the amount of bounce and energy bleedoff from the new flipper physics.

The new direction is absolutely great but it is a bit exaggerated in my opinion.

By far the biggest problem is the new resistance on the rubber material, or then the spin of the balls. These quite often cause the ball to have unrealistic spins that suddenly stop all momentum. I hope Zen puts some time into fixing this part first and then perhaps dial down the new flipper features a tiny bit. I suspect this would bring it really close to reality,

But yeah, in general the new improvements have definitely improved the overall physics. This was the right direction. Now it just needs to be fine tuned and some bugs fixed.

[Chewy-Tuna]

if you lot think this is good physics, then you have only played poorly serviced tables, next to real table this is near impossible to play, without even touching a single flipper ball lost on launch no score, on real table set up properly this would never happen, i played this table when first come out, this to me realy sucks as this was one of tables i was waiting for only to have, table physics of a badly set up worn table

[Mal]

Originally posted by Chewy-Tuna:

if you lot think this is good physics, then you have only played poorly serviced tables, next to real table this is near impossible to play, without even touching a single flipper ball lost on launch no score, on real table set up properly this would never happen, i played this table when first come out, this to me realy sucks as this was one of tables i was waiting for only to have, table physics of a badly set up worn table

These tables are modeled from tables that are actually in the Zen studio and have been set up to perform as if they are brand new right out of the crate. That being the case, they are very unforgiving with Classic Arcade and Tournament modes (as they should be), while the normal Single Player (Zen) mode provides a more manageable setup (not like real life) that allows you to get familiar with the ruleset and also use various power ups and passive bonuses.

While I know from experience you can't please all the people all the time, Zen has raised the bar with the accuracy of the physics as presented here while providing options for different level players. I'm sure they can (and will) fine tune things further as they have already demonstrated, but these tables in no way play as if they are poorly serviced and setup and/or worn out, and to suggest that tells me you probably haven't ever played a properly calibrated table before.

[El Scorpio]

THE RUBBER and the spin is awful. period. Everything else is really good. Fix that.

[punchobastardo]

Originally posted by Maggot Brain:

You are exaggerating. It was perfectly possible to do live catches and drop catches before.. it wasn't even all that difficult..

No it was not perfectly possible to do them, it was very hard and very random because of the very stiff "made of wood" flippers, and btw, seeing how you don't have a single score in the top 100 in any table of the previous Volumes (1,2,3) on tournament setup and arcade setup are you sure you are in the position to judge that?

[El Scorpio]

Originally posted by punchobastardo:

Originally posted by Maggot Brain:

You are exaggerating. It was perfectly possible to do live catches and drop catches before.. it wasn't even all that difficult..

No it was not perfectly possible to do them, it was very hard and very random because of the very stiff "made of wood" flippers, and btw, seeing how you don't have a single score in the top 100 in any table of the previous Volumes (1,2,3) on tournament setup and arcade setup are you sure you are in the position to judge that?

get off your high horse dude...what a douche comment. If you-re not in the top 100 you have no klnowledge

[a.biedermann]

I haven't tried the new physics. But i'm dissapointed of fx3 physics generally. It is far far away from being realistic. I rather play real flippers once a while.

[El Scorpio]

after playing it a lot the physics suck...weight seems ok but roll and flippers behaviour seem way opff.

[wickedcity1234]

Well I'm really liking the new update - it feels like there is more control to the ball - the only odd thing is that on occasion the ball has been effected by me pressing a flipper when it hasn't actually touched it. It's like the momentum or spin of the ball has been affected. This has only happened the odd time though.