Smelter Thrall

[Probitas]

Why do they not reduce the metal use for making iron/steel. The Carpenter thrall does. People have complained about the crazy 5 to 1 for making steel from iron, and the excuse given is always get a high tier smelter. Well checking wiki and having a t2 smelter, no reduction in materials occurs. All it does is speed it up and reduce the amount of fuel being burned.

Why is this one thrall of apparently zero use? We have tons of coal around, so fuel is not an issue, and because of that, there is no need to worry about how long it takes, we may as well not even have the thrall.

[SilvaDreams]

They speed up the process and use less coal, not the ironstone or iron needed, you can't magically get more material out of iron and stone.
Also for the comparison, a good carpenter is less wasteful and can shape more logs into boards instead of turning it into sawdust and shavings

[Awakening Demon]

I would not say smelters are a waste. Getting a T3/4 smelts 50% faster. When you're in a clan of 15 bringing back hundereds of ironstone and normal stone constantly, having stuff cook way faster is a big bonus. Really helps with cooking steel.

[Asmo]

Yeap Silva summed it up nicely, and a skileld carpenter is less likely to make mistakes so ofc he will need to use less wood for the same amount. With metal, *technicaly* A smelter cannot change the product outcome, only you the miner would be able to do that. but since we have no metal purity you cannot, cause the more pure the metal ore/stone the more you would get out of it i'd think.

[Probitas]

A skilled smelter can reduce waste by ensuring less contamination and better heating techniques. And honestly even in the real world it would not take 5 times as much iron to produce steel. All steel is is iron with most of the impurities removed. Granted getting the ingots can be a ratio of extremes depending on how dirty the raw iron is, but once you have the iron ingots, making that into steel is not as inefficient as this game makes it.

This just seems like some stupid gate put in to make it harder for smaller groups of people to compete against large established groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mprtHmEzXjI

[Dark_Assa]

For stations with fuel requriments thralls increase fuel burn time and for other ones, they reduce material cost.
That deseigned this way.

Not like that would be a problem. If you have base in the right place (= in "high" level area), then you going to have as much ironstone that you will never run out from it. It's pointless to change the ratio, it's already too easy to "live", unless you want to build full t3 walls everywhere, but even there the limiting component is the ichor and not the steel.

[Probitas]

Originally posted by Dark_Assa:

For stations with fuel requriments thralls increase fuel burn time and for other ones, they reduce material cost.
That deseigned this way.

Not like that would be a problem. If you have base in the right place (= in "high" level area), then you going to have as much ironstone that you will never run out from it. It's pointless to change the ratio, it's already too easy to "live", unless you want to build full t3 walls everywhere, but even there the limiting component is the ichor and not the steel.

It does no good to have a bunch of iron stone available, when ironstone to iron ingot is 2 for 1, then iron ingot to steel is 5 to 1. That means you need 1000 ironstone to get 100 steel ingots. That's crazy.

Considering you can farm for ichor handily, plants are abundant for making twine, and making the hardening goo is very rich for twine/ichor combination, your argument that ichor is limiting is specious (2 ichor and 5 twine give 5 consolidants- which then take 1 brick and 1 consolidant to make 1 hardened brick - that is not a limitation - it's actually a boost since 2 ichor equal 5 hardened bricks - whereas the iron to steel actually reduces.). The steel is the limitation. Which means the crazy ratio is the issue. It should be adjusted, even 3 for 1 would be better. I would prefer 2 iron to 1 steel.

And all things being equal a better ratio would benefit all players, except those established who don't want a challenge from other players working their way up, that lack of steel ensures it. Not to mention the insane damage things take and the repair costs. That's a double whammy.

[Dark_Assa]

Originally posted by Probitas:

Originally posted by Dark_Assa:

For stations with fuel requriments thralls increase fuel burn time and for other ones, they reduce material cost.
That deseigned this way.

Not like that would be a problem. If you have base in the right place (= in "high" level area), then you going to have as much ironstone that you will never run out from it. It's pointless to change the ratio, it's already too easy to "live", unless you want to build full t3 walls everywhere, but even there the limiting component is the ichor and not the steel.

It does no good to have a bunch of iron stone available, when ironstone to iron ingot is 2 for 1, then iron ingot to steel is 5 to 1. That means you need 1000 ironstone to get 100 steel ingots. That's crazy.

Considering you can farm for ichor handily, plants are abundant for making twine, and making the hardening goo is very rich for twine/ichor combination, your argument that ichor is limiting is specious (2 ichor and 5 twine give 5 consolidants- which then take 1 brick and 1 consolidant to make 1 hardened brick - that is not a limitation - it's actually a boost since 2 ichor equal 5 hardened bricks - whereas the iron to steel actually reduces.). The steel is the limitation. Which means the crazy ratio is the issue. It should be adjusted, even 3 for 1 would be better. I would prefer 2 iron to 1 steel.

And all things being equal a better ratio would benefit all players, except those established who don't want a challenge from other players working their way up, that lack of steel ensures it. Not to mention the insane damage things take and the repair costs. That's a double whammy.

dfq?
I don't said "increase ironstone drop" It's actualy that high(=there are that much veins) in the higher level areas, that you litearly don't even going to mine them all.
If I go down from my base, I have ~5veins right at my feet and additional 5-10 vein in every direction within 20m. I can constantly run my forges all day, but it pointless as I have hundreds of steel already stocked upon.
If you are lack of steel, then you live in a wrong place.

The rest of your comment doesn't even makes any sense. Do you even know what "limiting component" means?

lack of steel?
I can get 300 steel worth of ironstone and coal within 10min easily, but farming just 300 twine is a chore as you can only get 1-2 fieber from those plant at a time.

insane damage things take?
Each tool or weapon takes exactly 1point of durability dmg for every hit. If your tools break fast, then stop hiting the ground.

repair costs?
You mean that 8leather(I have thousands of it without any way to use up) or you mean that 15steel bar?

It took me around 30min to craft steel from nothing(after I lost all my base cause the patch). You need much more time to levelup to be avalible to craft steel items....
The hard way to up is leveling you up to level 50, that is chalanging, but making a gear out from nothing aren't.

[SWK]

I am guessing that they want to limit how fast or how much iron or steel players can have access to. Always keep in mind the developers wanting to limit the prevalance of various equipment and capabilities.

Avatars are actually a great example of something being too ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ easy to get.

[Probitas]

Originally posted by Dark_Assa:

Originally posted by Probitas:

It does no good to have a bunch of iron stone available, when ironstone to iron ingot is 2 for 1, then iron ingot to steel is 5 to 1. That means you need 1000 ironstone to get 100 steel ingots. That's crazy.

Considering you can farm for ichor handily, plants are abundant for making twine, and making the hardening goo is very rich for twine/ichor combination, your argument that ichor is limiting is specious (2 ichor and 5 twine give 5 consolidants- which then take 1 brick and 1 consolidant to make 1 hardened brick - that is not a limitation - it's actually a boost since 2 ichor equal 5 hardened bricks - whereas the iron to steel actually reduces.). The steel is the limitation. Which means the crazy ratio is the issue. It should be adjusted, even 3 for 1 would be better. I would prefer 2 iron to 1 steel.

And all things being equal a better ratio would benefit all players, except those established who don't want a challenge from other players working their way up, that lack of steel ensures it. Not to mention the insane damage things take and the repair costs. That's a double whammy.

dfq?
I don't said "increase ironstone drop" It's actualy that high(=there are that much veins) in the higher level areas, that you litearly don't even going to mine them all.
If I go down from my base, I have ~5veins right at my feet and additional 5-10 vein in every direction within 20m. I can constantly run my forges all day, but it pointless as I have hundreds of steel already stocked upon.
If you are lack of steel, then you live in a wrong place.

The rest of your comment doesn't even makes any sense. Do you even know what "limiting component" means?

lack of steel?
I can get 300 steel worth of ironstone and coal within 10min easily, but farming just 300 twine is a chore as you can only get 1-2 fieber from those plant at a time.

insane damage things take?
Each tool or weapon takes exactly 1point of durability dmg for every hit. If your tools break fast, then stop hiting the ground.

repair costs?
You mean that 8leather(I have thousands of it without any way to use up) or you mean that 15steel bar?

It took me around 30min to craft steel from nothing(after I lost all my base cause the patch). You need much more time to levelup to be avalible to craft steel items....
The hard way to up is leveling you up to level 50, that is chalanging, but making a gear out from nothing aren't.

Speak English. wtf is dfq? I never said ♥♥♥♥ all about increasing the ironstone. Where did you read that? Fiber drops far higher than 1 or 2 pieces per plant. I know this because I play the game.

Mining tools take more damage than 1 per hit. And where do you get off saying I don't make sense, it's very simple English to read. I debunked your statement that ichor is a limiting factor.

Also, please read this and tell me what it means, I can't fathom it "You need much more time to levelup to be avalible to craft steel items....
The hard way to up is leveling you up to level 50, that is chalanging, but making a gear out from nothing aren't."

We have plenty of ironstone around, but I have to repair the mining tool 3 times, and only get 300 steel out of it. And have to use 30 or more steel just to fix the pick. Plus the leather. And sometimes the pick takes damage but does not collect. And I'm not stupid enough to slap the ground while gathering. I even take great pains to avoid hitting the ground with nodes that are on a slant near a cliff. A confirmed %10 loss due to damage to the mining tool for each run in addition to the 5 to 1 loss is just a slap to the face.

I want to play the game, but gathering is not 'fun'. It's work. I can accept a certain level of it, but taking my work and making it worth 1/5 is insulting. That means I have to put in 5 times as much effort to achieve something. I thought the game was about PVP, not gathering? Similar things happen with the Cook, they apparently do the same thing as the Smelter. I just don't understand why the Carpenter has an effect on plank making (from 10- 1 to 7 to 1), but Smelters and Cooks don't reduce anything but time....And the excuse that they want to limit what is in the game when there is no upper limit to how much you can gather is the most empty excuse I have heard yet anywhere.

[Emberwave]

Originally posted by Probitas:

Mining tools take more damage than 1 per hit.

Sounds like a bug to me. While researching resource costs for repair/maintenance I have once encountered a steel pick taking consistently more than 1 point of damage per hit, but I haven't investigated this phenomenon any further, since it was happening locally in single player. I can confirm that 1 hit should reduce item durability by 1 point.

Originally posted by Probitas:

I just don't understand why the Carpenter has an effect on plank making (from 10- 1 to 7 to 1), but Smelters and Cooks don't reduce anything but time....

To answer that question: Because the devs want it to be this way in their game. We may or may not see balancing adjustments in the future as development progresses. Until then, server owners have extensive control over resource usage on their servers. They can for example increase gathering effectiveness, which has already been suggested, and which would yield the same result as increased durability: You will gather more resources until full repair of the tool is needed. Or they could even item durability on a global level. In the end, every community should be able to tweak their settings to their individual needs.

Oh, by the way: The counterpart to the carpenter is neither the smelter nor the cook. It's the blacksmith, and blacksmith thralls give you a huge advantage when building T2/T3 structures. A T2 thrall will reduce the cost for an iron reinforcement from 2 iron bars to 1. This is huge, even better than what the carpenter does.

[Papa]

Wow mate, cry more.
"i want everything really easy because im a cry baby/useless"
learn to play mate.
I am a solo player, no problems with steel or gathering it (ichor on the other hand is a pain, i hate spiders and 1 ichor maybe per spider)
if the game was easy it would not be such a achievement to one self when you get full decked in steel or build that vault.
I mine around 1k iron stone per pick break, that is still a net 85 steel per run/5mins

[Probitas]

Unfortunately, we also see the case where most structures see no thrall benefit because most structures are hand crafted. No reduction in materials cost at all.

@Papa, you kids need to stop with the cry crap. This is about game logic. And 'fun'. It's not fun to spend hours gathering, I want to have fun doing other things in the game. This is where all survival games seem to fail. At least in some you can build fridges or salt your food so it lasts. This game has none of that, yet even in Conans stories they had SALT. So you have to run out and kill a bunch of stuff and cook food, constantly, (BTW, rotten food weights more than cooked food - wtf is that? Spontaneous weight gain??) And in case no one knew it MEAT WORKS BEST IN THE WHEEL, EXOTIC MEAT TOPS THE LIST. (caps for emphasis, so people see it, test it, and see gruel and human flesh actually are the worst. Also, gruel weights 30 lbs per 100, when the materials required to make that weigh less in total.....more logic fail.

My concern is about fun. I know some people think it's fun to spend hours 'playng the gathering game', but that is not fun to me. And it is really a chore when the game punishes you by reducing the work of that time by an automatic amount like this game does. The only game I've ever seen worse than this one for creating a crafting hell is L2.

[Papa]

Gruel works best, 1 gruel lasts like 1hr+ (have not timed it as it would take way to long) if not more before going bad. Meat, 1 exotic meat lasts around 5-10mins.
So you are crying about going collecting all this stuff, here is a tip gruel is easy to make and you make heaps and lasts forever, meat does not. Also meat does not make it complete quicker as i have tried both (just in your weak minded head that it did)
And i agree with the salted meat, but that would take time, your next complaint would be "salted meat takes to long to make (insert crying here)"

[Hans Blitz]

The game is a bit grindy but thats what these builder type games are, the worst one i have tried is Life Is Fedual. Digging and terraforming takes forever! building and harvesting is long and the animations are slow and boring for little resource, even on max settings, finding ore is a nightmare, and making steel is like pulling a tooth requiring an insane amount of skill in other areas like alchemy because you need flux for the proccess and every ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ world generates random resources when it comes to herbs, no sever has the same set of ingrediants so you have to gain skill then find out all the abilies each herb gives note it all down and then harvest, harvest, harvest, i got sick of picking ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ flowers!

[GamerTeah]

Originally posted by SilvaDreams:

They speed up the process and use less coal, not the ironstone or iron needed, you can't magically get more material out of iron and stone.
Also for the comparison, a good carpenter is less wasteful and can shape more logs into boards instead of turning it into sawdust and shavings

Maybe, the ratio for smelting (heat +matirials) is where the waste comes in?

I agree there should be an equivalent mat reduction for smelting as other stations.

A good smelter can make more bars from less mats because they are not hella clumsy or wastefull.