Bad scouts in MvM? Read this!

[Sensei Dave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Uws4JNoqY

The mission and difficulty will often determine the loadout you choose and the upgrades you invest in. In the normal and beginner modes It's forgivable to invest in your primary weapon because they're so easy, but nobody playing scout should fool themselves into thinking they're amongst the offensive players on the team and thus go for kills. Scout exists as a support class in MvM and that's vital in the Advance and Expert waves, especially Mecha Engine.

Good Scout techniques that will aid your team greatly (outside of grabbing money) are to do things like distracting robots. With overheal and some resistance you're nearly indestructable most the time. Combine that with added speed for dodging projectiles you can do a lot to draw fire away from the more stationary members of your team. Robots usually don't engage untill you start firing at them or bump into them. Toss a few pop shots their way and you'll be the belle of the mecha ball with all eyes on you.

Another tip is to help take care of those pesky support bots that can really hamstring your teammates; typically spies and snipers. A good pyro will double back at a spy alert and keep close watch on your engineer's equipment and the usually nearby Heavy, so you won't always be enlisted to help as robot spies are rather stupid, and have no natural fear of fire. Snipers though can really cause havoc, and you can close the distance towards them quickly. Flank them and take them out with a well placed shot or two. It'll be just like the old days of harassing the battlements in two fort.

Don't shoot at uber medics: Granted, a well placed shot from an upgraded scatter gun can 1 shot a medic, but even so if your Demo and or Sniper are doing their job then they're already gunning for those pesky bots with extreme prejudice. If you've got the shot and the opportunity is there, take it, but don't make it a point to beat others to the kill.

Loadouts are debatable in some areas for scout, not so debatable in others. As stated before, being a scout in the lower ranked missions such as boot camp and normal are much more forgiving to loadouts and play styles, but not so much in Advanced and Expert modes.

For advanced and above here are some slot suggestions and reasoning for them.

Primary: (This slot is for the most part, irrelivant. All scout primaries shoot, all do damage, none of which should be upgradded before you've instilled a sensible ammount of resistance and speed upgrades, and perhaps a couple points in jump height depending on the map for ease of access to key points.)

Best choices: Scatter Gun, Force A Nature, Soda Popper
Worst Choices: Short Stop, Baby Face's Blaster

The scatter gun is the easiest choice, everyone has one, it's fire speed can be upgraded to great effect, and the damage output at close range is powerful even without upgrades. Clip size and reload speed are the upgrades to aim for on this, and then damage as a luxury. Ammo shouldn't be a concern, it's just a short jog away to a dispenser for you.

I personally prefer the FaN (Force a' Nature) Quick fire speed, high damage output, and a knockback effect that either inhibits bots progress or helps you get around a map more easily and climb obstacles (including robots) Damage is an all right choice for this one as far as upgrades go. It's originally a dummied down scatter gun with a damage penalty in exchange for more projectiles per shot (which actually makes it do more dmg than the scatter gun already) Clip size for this is expensive, since it only gives you one shot more, but there's no need to increase the reload speed. (Special note: if there's a point you actually come across a good sniper on your team, it's probably best not to use this gun. The distance for the knockback effect on the large bots is somewhat larger, and thus even if you're not trying to, you'll end up knocking around large bots in the air, which can drive a sniper nuts trying to headshot hard targets. However if it's a huntsman sniper or Sydney sleeper user, go nuts, those guys are soon to be kicked anyway.)

Sodda Popper is the lowest in the tier of good ideas for primaries. My problem with it is it makes you lose some self control and revert to bad scout tactics of trying to be a badass. Once those mini crits are charged it almost becomes an impulse to use them. Toss in a few upgrades to clip size and damage, and you've got what's essentially the Beggars bazooka effect. If you can restrain yourself and do what you're primarily supposed to be doing then this gun will be a lot of fun for you.

The worst choices are the Short Stop and Baby Face. The short stop makes the bottom tier because it detracts from the scout being up close and personal. Most scouts ive seen use this usually stay at mid range and dance around. Sure they get money when the bots are down but it's a different kind of harassment that's not very beneficial. Robots tend to fire at who's firing at them, but also lean towards shooting whomever is closest. There are some hidey holes in each map where for whatever reason the robots wont see you, or just don't care. A key example of this is the Rock by the Fence in the cave on Big Rock where Demos usually perch. If a scout isn't taking the brunt of the shots though, then somebody else is, and usually someone killing a lot more bots then you are.
Baby face's should be explanitory as a BAD GUN simply by it's stats. Lowered run speed that increases with boost, and is lost as soon as you jump. This destroys the entire essence of what makes scout good in MvM. it's just a bad choice, and if you need a rationalization to this do us all a favor and stay in boot camp.

Secondary slot is all about Mad Milk... ("But Dave, I want to use my pistol so I can take out robots from a distance! Ooh, no what I actually need is Bonk so I can survive longer and get money and...") {Slap!}
Quit your whining! If it hasn't come off as being obvious to you by now, the essence of what I've said in this post is AS A SCOUT YOU'RE THERE TO HELP THE TEAM, NOT BEAT THE TEAM!
If you view Mad milk as a tool just to slow super scouts so they don't get past the team, then your thought process is too simplistic. The health return gained from throwing Milk is far more beneficial to the team than slowing down a couple of bots here and there. On waves with lots of giants and especially Heavies and Soldiers, Mad Milk is going to help keep everyone alive. A teams Heavy can stare down a giant heavy all day as long as it's milked and taking mini crits. Same goes for pyros. Not to mention if somebody takes a bad hit and is near death, all they have to do is look for the sopping wet robots covered in confusion and shame to shoot a couple of rounds into and retreat or keep fighting. In the realm of Advanced and Expert, there is no other choice. If you don't have mad milk then don't play scout less you anticipate the inevitable kick from the server (Their idea not mine.)
Upgrading this is pretty straight forward. The slow effect will probably be your initial investment on the first wave you see with super scouts. After that, slowly increase the charge rate over time. In expert mode the charge rate should take priority over your primary weapon upgrades, at least untill you have 2-3 points in it. Ballance upgrading this in conjunction with when you see super scouts and whatever resists you think you're going to need most for the round ahead.

Melee has a couple of acceptable choices, namely the Sandman, or Fan o' War. Of course this adds mini crits, which the soldier and sniper can also provide with Jarate and Buff Banner. So you might be saying "But why then Dave do 'I' have to use one of these to mark targets? Why risk getting up close when I can just let those guys do it?"
Two reasons really.
1: Both the Buff Banner and Jarate are on charges, and therefore not always ready to go. A minor detail especially seeing how they hit more than 1 target, but the other reason is important.
2: Jarate and Buff banner can't always be seen at a distance, or in the Banner's case your team isn't always clustered to recieve it, so not everybody is getting the effect. Essentially what the mark for death does is 2 things.
Firstly is insures everyone is critting the target.
Second, it acts like a beacon. If you know the targets of importance you can help serve as a sudo coach mechanism to players of lesser experience by marking a target. Players natural inclination is to fire where they're doing the most damage. By marking the target, you're shooting out a signal that screams "Hey dummy, shoot here for lots of points! (Buy more hats!) This target is vulnerable, and everyone else is shooting it, join the fun, watch how fast it dies! (HATS! Your Hat to weapon ratio is too low! you don't want to look like a f2p do you! HLE3 will never be made if you don't buy more hats!)
Hey, that target did die fast! And now that it's dead things seem to be going fairly smoothly. I'll have to make a note to either shoot that target when I see it in the future and hope everyone else does the same. (That spy is wearing a hat that is also a spy! Kill him! Take his soul; then take his hat! Apease your master!)"

I've been in many MvM matches with good and bad players. There's a learning curve for everyone, so through playing and seeing what other people do that have successfully completed missions, you'll become better. I don't discredit people with a low ammount of tours, but when you see someone who's done 20+ tours and you've done 2, it's probably not the best idea to spout out your ideas of greatness to override the team.

Best suggestions as a new player to Mann up modes are:
Be willing to take suggestions from the veterans.
Don't let them insult your intelligence, but don't be unwilling to hear their methods to success and go with it. You can always improove upon them later as you see fit.
As a newbie to Mann up DON'T brag about how many time's you've completed a mission in Boot Camp and therefor "Know what you're doing" Because you don't, it's not the same. I go robo trolling in boot camp with the sole purpose of taunt killing Robots... and win... a lot.
And lastly don't play key classes with no experience. These include Demo, Engineer, Scout, Heavy, and especially Sniper. Demos are usually responscible for killing uber medics that otherwise make or break an entire wave. Heavies need to know when to rage and what upgrades to have in order to survive and do the most dmg. Enginners are way more complex than throw a sentry here, and put a dispenser here, they have to know key points to set their gear to block things like scouts. They also need to know how to move their sentries away from Busters and the team, and when to sacrifice a sentry just to stop having nightmares and rebuild a new one.
A scout should be more doable after reading this guide, but work your way through the easy missions first. As for Sniper, don't dilude yourself. If you can't quickshot people in player matches with relative consistancy then don't even try to play sniper. The class certainly has it's uses in decimating robots, but certain maps have no call for it, and it can equally quagmire your team if its not set up properly.

Play soldier, or pyro untill you get an idea of play from seeing a few matches. In expert a lot of people like to go with two heavies so even that's doable if you just stick with your heavy buddy and watch what he's doin.

This turnned into a long winded guide rather than the simple post I was thinking of. In any case, I hope ppl take what they will from it, and find a way to make themselves better in MvM so we can all share in Mission Success.

[jus' Ignαnt]

Nice post.

[VimesCarrot]

The TL;DR version:

Milk; mark; buy resistances; kill Sniperbots.

Sodapopper/Scattergun/Force-a-Nature
Milk
Fan o' War/Sandman

So, everything we've been hearing since day one, then. With the addition of "distract the robots".

Also OP apparently doesn't know you can play the Mann Up missions in Boot Camp.

[Sensei Dave]

Originally posted by NME VimesCarrot:

The TL;DR version:

Milk; mark; buy resistances; kill Sniperbots.

Sodapopper/Scattergun/Force-a-Nature
Milk
Fan o' War/Sandman

So, everything we've been hearing since day one, then. With the addition of "distract the robots".

Also OP apparently doesn't know you can play the Mann Up missions in Boot Camp.

Wouldn't know about what you've heard from day 1. I didn't play MvM much from the start as I was on a stint away from TF2. Got back into it around Mecha update but still, if what I've come to find on my own is still tried and true, then it works right? Yet ppl still play scout poorly.

Boot Camp missions and actuall Mann up Modes are still worlds apart. There's no incentive to win Boot Camp, thus people are more inclined to troll. I'd like to remove that aspect from where people have either paid for or traded for tickets to play the "real" mode.

Objective of this post was to give a visualization and reasoning to why these methods are useful, in hopes it'd connect to something lacking in other posts and simply to offer a new perspective towards something.

[Hacked Exhale]

Good amount of wrong.

Shortstop is as good as the scattergun. The only weapon you shouldn't use is baby face blaster.
Force a nature/sodapopper > scattergun/shortstop >>>>> baby face blaster

Did you know that you can actually shoot bots with the sodapopper and still milk, mark and collect all the money? Shocking isn't it?

Medium range harassment/killing is bad? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what are you smoking.

lol at heavy requiring any experience or being a key class. Classes that require a bit of experience are demo, engi and scout. Classes that require a lot of experience are any of the support classes. Key classes are scout (spy can replace him but its a massive waste of his potential and he can't collect money that well), engi and demo/sniper/spy (medics).

I am a bad sniper in pub play but I am amazing in mvm, so it is wrong that you need to be able to quickscope constantly in normal pub to be good in mvm.

The guide also slowly turns into general mvm tips instead of "hey scouts, read this to get a better understanding of the class" and let's not talk about the retarded "lol ♥♥♥♥♥♥ hat jokes" section in melees that keep on going and going

7/10 guide - see me after class

[VimesCarrot]

Originally posted by Hacked Exhale:

7/10 guide - see me after class

what the dewop kind of school did you go to that a 7/10 merits a "see me"?

[Hacked Exhale]

The school of jokes perfection

[Sensei Dave]

Originally posted by Hacked Exhale:

Good amount of wrong.

Shortstop is as good as the scattergun. The only weapon you shouldn't use is baby face blaster.
Force a nature/sodapopper > scattergun/shortstop >>>>> baby face blaster

Did you know that you can actually shoot bots with the sodapopper and still milk, mark and collect all the money? Shocking isn't it?

Medium range harassment/killing is bad? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what are you smoking.

lol at heavy requiring any experience or being a key class. Classes that require a bit of experience are demo, engi and scout. Classes that require a lot of experience are any of the support classes.

I am a bad sniper in pub play but I rape in mvm, so it is wrong that you need to be able to quickscope constantly in normal pub to be good in mvm.

The guide also slowly turns into general mvm tips instead of "hey scouts, read this to get a better understanding of the class" and let's not talk about the retarded "lol ♥♥♥♥♥♥ hat jokes" section in melees that keep on going and going

7/10 guide - see me after class

Admittedly, did leech out a bit towards general MvM. Partial bad habbit, partial realization as I was writting that I had an opportunity to give some suggestions towards the potential newer players potentially reading this post.

Ultimately I'd like to see MvM become easier in the sense of finding compitent people randomly in matches. Better players can do all sorts of things and play in a multitude of ways while still being effective, and of course the class make up and skill level of all players involved will determin the success or failure of the mission.

The short stop commentary wasn't so much a knock against the weapon, it does what every other scout weapon does and shoots stuff. One of the main points in the post was to disbar the thoughts so many scouts have in that "I'm effective because I'm killing robots, so I should primarily focus on my damage output."

The shortstop is a fine weapon... for a seasoned player. I was more so hinting towards certain players inability to multi task and realize they should be doing more than just shooting at mid field.

Being a bad sniper in public play doesnt mean you're inept at doing it in MvM. Bots are easier. They'll run through the same place again, and again, and again. Players are usually onto you after you nail em once or twice so they'll move erradically or take different routes to avoid you. I won't claim to be the greatest sniper in MvM but I am good enough to carry a team and have done so on many occasions. The purpose of my statement in the post was to make a hint at people not over evaluating their skill as a sniper and becoming a burden to their team without even knowing what's beneficial to begin with and being unable to see how much of a pain they are.

The post was spur of the moment, so sorry if I struggled to entertain you with humor, but condescending remarks I suppose are the internet's automatic funny button? I placed the "()"ed txt in there as a break because I realized it was getting long winded. I also realized how many encounters I'd had with scouts that absolutely positively refused to use a fan o' war, or sandman at any cost, and figured if I gave a solid reasoning for why they were good choices, a few light bulbs might pop up.

As for heavies requiring experience. I site Mecha Engine, and the boss battles/tomislav & Natasha wielding wastes of time who shoot tanks from across the map and die to slow moving crit rockets.

[VimesCarrot]

Originally posted by Sensei Dave gD:

Ultimately I'd like to see MvM become easier in the sense of finding compitent people randomly in matches. Better players can do all sorts of things and play in a multitude of ways while still being effective, and of course the class make up and skill level of all players involved will determin the success or failure of the mission.

That's because Valve didn't implement the whole system properly. Killing Floor does it better.

*Cite, not site.

Your Heavy example is ridiculous. Anyone who actually know how to play the game and understands the basic concepts of TF2 will know not to get killed by a critrocket and to stand closer to a tank; Natascha and Tomislav require listening to but a single instruction from a player. Scout requires experience along the line of "Can I survive this to grab that money?". Heavy requires experience more along the lines of "Should I pull back now or try to hold?" I don't play Heavy, so I couldn't say how hard that might be, but you're undermining your own argument by giving examples that anyone can achieve easily and with minimal to no experience.

[Sensei Dave]

So it's at the point now where nothing is left to be said between two individuals on a forum so it boils down to petty arguments.

My heavy example may come as a "No duh" example, yet the ammount of bad players I've come across that can't do something as simple as stand there, and shoot things effectivly is mind boggling. If you're a serious player, then most of this post should have been a no brainer to begin with.

Condensed: Milk, Fan, Shoot, got all the money? Run away, repeat. Bravo you can no play scout in MvM, who cares if you know why what you're doing works or doesn't work, it's what everybody on the internet is screaming at you to do.

If it's all so simplistic why are so many random's now in perpetual suckitude since the Phlog Nerf. The implication is that too many people relied on the pyro to make their runs easier, and now that those days are over, the people who can't compensate are sticking out all over. Just trying to offer some suggestions to make people think a bit more and maybe be a better player, rather than cry over how the game is flawed.

[Sgt. Pepper]

While I think the Phlog nerf was unnecessary, I think Valve has something up its sleeve to lend the pyro.

On topic of the guide, good guide, I approve. I may/may not make an engie guide on the discussion anyhow...

[Sensei Dave]

Agreed. I don't find that the phlog nerf made it too much more difficult to complete missions. It's nothing a cpl crit canteens can't fix and I still prefer it to the regular flame thrower; on tank waves at least.

[$@GA #merkelsommer]

I didn´t read everything of your post way too pro to listen to advice and I´ve seen enough crap guides about MvM but because of your last paragraph I can assume it wasn´t your intention to write a guide?

The players that should be enjoying one or two guides do not visit this place. I can hardly imagine them listening to tips anyway but if they do I´m pretty sure the would search the guides section first which is why you should post your guide there and not here IMO.

[killer.matthew.2021]

Really helpful/

[Radioactive Panda]

I think this is the record.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Originally posted by Hacked Exhale:

Good amount of wrong.

Shortstop is as good as the scattergun. The only weapon you shouldn't use is baby face blaster.
Force a nature/sodapopper > scattergun/shortstop >>>>> baby face blaster

Did you know that you can actually shoot bots with the sodapopper and still milk, mark and collect all the money? Shocking isn't it?

Medium range harassment/killing is bad? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what are you smoking.

Couldn't agree more. I usually play a shortstop scout and, although money is a priority, I put up as much damage as I can. No reason you can't do all of those things.