Robot overheal

[sigsegv]

If you've played MvM for any significant length of time, you'll have noticed that giant robots aren't overhealed by medics. (In other words, a Giant Heavy with medic(s) has his regular health value of 5000, rather than 7500 as you might expect.) On the other hand, regular robots generally do get overhealed by medics.

But this doesn't have anything to do with whether the medic and/or patient are giant robots. (At least, not directly.)

Instead, it has to do with certain robots (particularly giants) having increased Health values, specified in the mission's pop file. Overheal is based on the target class's regular max health (e.g. 300 for heavy), rather than the particular robot's modified max health.

This has some unintuitive consequences. Here's a video with some experiments I did on the matter:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=424765731

I am fairly certain that this is a case where the developers didn't know what they were doing. Because if they did know what they were doing, they'd have made things like modified health and modified movement speed get factored into the max overheal amount and the slowdown percentage, and then balanced the game around that.

Instead, because they didn't know what they were doing, we get weird, counterintuitive effects. Why does a 275 HP engineer with an uber medic on the Disintegration mission not get overhealed to 410 HP? It's not because the designer of that particular mission made a conscious decision to limit the overheal on the engiebots for game balance; no, it happens because of the fact that the engineer class in TF2 normally has 125 HP, which is completely irrelevent in the context of MvM.

Why is mad milk slowdown preposterously effective on Super Scouts but near-useless for other giants? Because the slowdown percentage is based on the class's normal movement speed, and most giants are already slowed down to 50% of normal; super scouts happen to have an increased movement speed, meaning that the slowdown effect is over-effective on them.

It doesn't make any sense at all to base this stuff on the class's normal health/speed, given that many robots (mostly giants) have health/speed values that are vastly different from the normal values for their class.

Oh, and items that modify max health (pocket pistol, sandman, backup, eyelander, booties, warrior's spirit, gunslinger, vita-saw, DDS, big earner, ...) do scale the overheal amount, but setting the robot's health in the pop file does not scale the overheal amount. That's some Valve logic right there.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I need to make a centralized super-thread for my tests and analysis and stuff. I'm working on that.

[K716]

BTW a Giant Medic's QF generates Ubercharge at the same rate of a regular QF? From my reading of pop files so far (my progress is through TC and ME, still have GG to do) most, if not nearly all Uber Medics are the "QuickUber" kind, with some "BigHeal" scattered in a few places.

[sigsegv]

引用自 itsgalf：

Instead the Giant Heavy died, the Giant Medic didn't pull out his syringe gun and looked around confused.

The Giant Medic template has "WeaponRestrictions SecondaryOnly" so they're unable switch to their syringe gun.

引用自 Hell-met：

they even stop healing their patient, but they still follow it at the appropriate distance and they will even pop even if they could never know.

Sounds pretty similar to what I found when I made the Giant Medic pocket me as an undisguised spy. The medic may be looking at the wrong thing or be unable to use their medigun for some reason, but they'll still remember who they're pocketing and maintain their following distance, as well as monitor the pocket and/or listen to its commands for ubering.

引用自 Hell-met：

also I suspect the medbots healing eachother is not intended because it only happens with 4+ medbots in the same squad. less than that and they will never do it.

Nope. It can happen with a squad that has just 2 medic bots.
https://youtu.be/Yy_2hjYdUaA

I didn't modify the FormationSize of the squad for that video; it's set to the default. I used the front "spawnbot" spawn point of Mannhattan, but others would likely work too.

I also made this video, which is at 1/10 speed. It shows how the random direction that players are facing when they spawn contributes to the fellow-medics-being-overhealed situation.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429951919

Here's another video, featuring a 12-medic squad. Watch it in 720p so you can see the health numbers in the upper-left. The medics just keep overhealing each other. It lasts a stunningly long time.
https://youtu.be/mHZbrBIERYI

[sigsegv]

引用自 sigsegv：

The Giant Medic template has "WeaponRestrictions SecondaryOnly" so they're unable switch to their syringe gun.

Actually, that restriction only applies to regular Giant Medics. The nerfed Two Cities Giant Medics can switch weapons.

引用自 K716：

BTW a Giant Medic's QF generates Ubercharge at the same rate of a regular QF?

Yes, aside from the insane heal rate, it otherwise works like the regular Quick-Fix. They spawn with full charge; their ubercharge lasts 8 seconds; and it takes them 64 seconds to fully build uber again after using it once. Healing a giant that's at full health is considered "> 142.5% health", so the ubercharge builds at the reduced rate meant for overhealed pockets. (If not for this, the uber could build in as little as 32 seconds.)

The nerfed Two Cities Giant Medics (T_TFBot_Giant_Medic_Regen) have the following differences:

• they don't spawn with full charge
  
• their ubercharge build rate is 100x slower (would take 107 minutes to build a full charge)
  
• they passively self-regenerate 43hp/second instead of just 3hp/second

引用自 K716：

From my reading of pop files so far (my progress is through TC and ME, still have GG to do) most, if not nearly all Uber Medics are the "QuickUber" kind, with some "BigHeal" scattered in a few places.

Here's a rundown of the types of medics and where they show up.

T_TFBot_Medic

• shows up as "Uber Medic"
  
• uber/stock medigun
  
• spawns with full ubercharge
  
• 5x heal rate: 120-360 hp/second
  
• 2x ubercharge build rate: 20-40 seconds
  
• normal uber duration: 8 seconds

T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber

• shows up as "Uber Medic"
  
• uber/stock medigun
  
• spawns with full ubercharge
  
• 1/10x heal rate: 2.4-7.2 hp/second
  
• 5x ubercharge build rate: 8-16 seconds
  
• reduced uber duration: 5 seconds

T_TFBot_Medic_BigHeal

• shows up as "Quick-Fix Medic"
  
• equipped with the Quick-Fix
  
• does not spawn with ubercharge
  
• 10x heal rate: 240-720 hp/second
  
• 1/10x ubercharge build rate: 320-640 seconds
  
• normal uber duration: 8 seconds

T_TFBot_Medic_QuickFix

• shows up as "Quick-Fix Medic"
  
• equipped with the Quick-Fix
  
• does not spawn with ubercharge
  
• normal heal rate: 33-100 hp/second
  
• normal uber build rate: 32-64 seconds
  
• normal uber duration: 8 seconds

T_TFBot_Medic_SlowRecharge

• shows up as "Uber Medic"
  
• uber/stock medigun
  
• spawns with full ubercharge
  
• 5x heal rate: 120-360 hp/second
  
• 1/4x uber build rate: 128-256 seconds
  
• normal uber duration: 8 seconds

Mentions of each type in all popfiles:

55  T_TFBot_Medic
143 T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber
68  T_TFBot_Medic_BigHeal
19  T_TFBot_QuickFix
0   T_TFBot_Medic_SlowRecharge
14  T_TFBot_Giant_Medic
10  T_TFBot_Giant_Medic_Regen

Mecha Engine
All uber medics are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber, including the medics on the engies on the Disintegration mission.
The only quick-fix medics are T_TFBot_Medic_BigHeal, used in wave 2 of Disintegration.
All giant medics are T_TFBot_Giant_Medic.

Gear Grinder
All uber medics are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber, with the exception of Mannslaughter wave 4, which has a few T_TFBot_Medic.
The only quick-fix medics are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickFix, used in wave 2 of Mannslaughter.
All giant medics are T_TFBot_Giant_Medic.

Two Cities: Mannhattan
All uber medics are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber.
The only quick-fix medics are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickFix, used in wave 4 of Metro Malice.
All giant medics are T_TFBot_Giant_Medic_Regen.

Two Cities: Rottenburg
The Uber medics are a mix of T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber and T_TFBot_Medic.
The quick-fix medics in wave 4 of Hamlet Hostility are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickFix.
All giant medics are T_TFBot_Giant_Medic_Regen, with the exception of the ones in early waves of Bavarian Botbash.
The support medics at the end of Bavarian Botbash are T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber, T_TFBot_Medic_BigHeal, and T_TFBot_Medic_QuickFix.

[Hell-met]

there's couples custom types

in steel decoy

TFBot
{
Class Medic
ClassIcon medic_uber
Skill Normal
ItemAttributes
{
ItemName "TF_WEAPON_MEDIGUN"
"ubercharge rate bonus" 5
}
CharacterAttributes
{
"heal rate bonus" 0.1
}
}

and spy wave in bigrock

TFBot
{
Template T_TFBot_Medic_QuickUber
ItemAttributes
{
ItemName "TF_WEAPON_MEDIGUN"
"uber duration bonus" 4
}
}

they're pretty much the best stuff

[sigsegv]

引用自 Hell-met：

there's couples custom types

Good catch, I forgot to look for those.