The Problem with the Huntsman

[Dark Rush]

It took me a while but I think I put my finger on it. The Huntsman, being one of the most strange and unusual (rim shot) weapons in the game has always fascinated me by how powerful it is but how out of place it is. Here's why.

All the other rifles work long range. Short range, you must scope for the damage or your just going to get 43-57 damage, 50 being the average. Now, the Huntsman introduced the new mechanic of charging the bow for a quick release rather than waiting for a charge. It also gave rise to a more competitive Sniper who is willing to get into the line of fire.

However, it also is tragically flawed. Although able to do incredible damage long range, it's hit boxes are stupidly large but much worse: it does a ton of damage up close. How close? It can be 3 feet distance close. That defeats the purpose of a Sniper. He is supposed to be far away. He already has a multitude of short range weapons when things don't stay long range. Why should he have both at once in one weapon? It doesn't make sense that the class that does insta kills from across the map can kill somebody faster than a Soldier, Heavy, Pyro, Demo or even Scout in short range.

You may argue that the Huntsman, unlike the rifles, has to compensate for the drop off, has a limited range due to the lack of scope and must be charged to shoot with full damage. Problem is though, that it does anywhere from 43-58 damage. Not to mention a few shots off with the thing and the target is dead. No guarantees for the default/others. Plus you don't get knocked out of pulling it back while other sniper rifles get unscoped while under fire. Even worse, you can set the arrows on fire for more damage and you get the quickest and most effective kill taunt in the game. The taunt by itself is OP, not the weapon.

Don't get me wrong, I like the weapon. I use it more so than most of the rifles. That said, I feel awful in situations where a Scout or Pyro is about to ambush me, which is their jobs, but die do to a lucky spammed arrow or a head shot from a couple feet back. That's not right. Sniper isn't supposed to ambush like that.

--So, I propose a simple fix. Within a short distance, the arrow should do significantly less damage than if it were to travel the map, like the Crusader's Crossbow. I really mean much less. Like 10-30 range damage and 30-50 random crit. It also should not get head shots within 5 feet roughly. That isn't fair for the other classes whose niche is short range.--

Just my thoughts. Tell me what you think about the weapon.

inb4 Smugleaf quotes me to tell me where I'm "wrong"

[Mischief]

I find all short range kills to come from luck and scouts not being smart enough to not be infront of the sniper.

[Sentient_Toaster]

It's actually meant more for closer-range combat, I'm pretty sure, since you get more situational awareness and it's much less efficient at longer ranges due to the need to charge to avoid the huge drop-off. Your proposed change would make it worse at exactly where it's supposed to be a viable alternative.

Don't think any Sniper primary actually gets random critical hits. The Bushwacka gets both minicrit promotion -> full and random crits, but I'm pretty sure the Huntsman only gets the headshot crit (or kritzkrieg / CTF-bonus crit, but how often does one Kritzkrieg a Huntsman sniper?).

The taunt... is short-range, like most taunts, and doesn't strike me as especially relevant since in most cases if you can stay close enough long enough to use a taunt kill uninterrupted, your target had to be completely unaware and probably alone, and you had more efficient ways of killing them anyway -- like a headshot in this case. Even in the case of the Pow taunt, which actually has some range... well, compare to spin-up time and the fact that you can't adjust aim during the taunt, and it's still pretty iffy.

If there's an issue, it's with the hitboxes; projectile hitboxes are pretty large compared to hitscan hitboxes.

[Dark Rush]

You're right about the critical hits. I misread my research. However, there is a difference between short range combat and 2 feet away. Nobody deserves an insta kill from 2 feet away unless you are a short range class, i.e. Heavy or Pyro. I could understand 7 feet maybe, 10 feet ideally, but not within melee distance for head shots.

[khrvidru]

I agree that it's a bit goofy, but it's actually really hard to use (although they don't call it the Lucksman for no reason). If you can consistently (can't stress this one word enough, one good game doesn't prove anything) do good with it, it's not the weapon being OP, it's you being good. I am terrible with the damn thing, can't quite get the arc and projectile speed right.
And on your nerf idea, that's just a bit too drastic. First off, even if you're good with it, it's really hard to snipe with it from across the map, as it was designed as a mid range weapon. And by reducing the short range damage that much, you'd make the Sniper completely vulnerable to everything, always, ever. Even the regular Sniper Rifle is capable of an instant 150 damage if you can land the headshot from up close (which is no more difficult than with the Huntsman), and even if you can't it's a solid 50 damage on bodyshot, and it's a long range weapon. Besides, if a Scout or Pyro ambushes you, and you can kill him before he can kill you, he probably deserved the fate that came to him.
VALVe is going to add some weapons into the game that change a class clompletely, like the Demoknight weapons, and we'll just have to put up with it. Said classes are going to pick up new roles, their capabilities will change, they will require you to develop a whole new playstyle. Try looking at it like a whole new class, it should help you cope with feeling that Snipers are out of place on the front lines. A friend of mine and I for example cry "Legolas!" every time we see a Huntsman Sniper, which is always fun. Once he has a bow in his hands, he's not a Sniper anymore, he's simply Legolas.

[[Goro] KevKen]

here here

[Meme Fortress 2]

lol OP taunts, thats a good one. I suppose getting lucky spam kills with weapons right around corners are fine, but with the fragile sniper its unfair? it cant even be used underwater, while falling or airborne. as said earlier all the snipers 'close range' weapons do pitiful damage, and thats if you even have them equipped

[Tolna]

I find most of the time the hitbox works against itself. Oftentimes I find it gives me a bodyshot for what looks like a headshot.

I don't believe it needs a radical nerf it serves it's purpose of a " Rambo" playstyle quite well and close range classes have a defence against him (Airblast, backstab, scout runspeed). But the idea certainly could use some playtesting to see how it'd be in a live environment.

[Dark Rush]

Let's not forget Sniper's secondaries and the giant hitboxes on his melees. He has SMGs, Jarate, a backpack that recharges health+ no flinching and the Shahanshah (it's a new class, all together). I can agree that Sniper is very different with the Huntsman, but he can't have it both ways. The Huntsman offers long range damage, medium range and short range damage. I'm fine with mid range damage but why should a class with some of the most powerful weapons get a tool powerful enough to knockdown classes that need short range? Think about the Pyro? How do you think he feels knowing that a guy with an arrow killed him from around the corner before he could work his magic on the flamethrower?

Now, hit boxes are a different story...

[Meme Fortress 2]

Originally posted by Professor Pootis Fury:

Let's not forget Sniper's secondaries and the giant hitboxes on his melees. He has SMGs, Jarate, a backpack that recharges health+ no flinching and the Shahanshah (it's a new class, all together). I can agree that Sniper is very different with the Huntsman, but he can't have it both ways. The Huntsman offers long range damage, medium range and short range damage. I'm fine with mid range damage but why should a class with some of the most powerful weapons get a tool powerful enough to knockdown classes that need short range? Think about the Pyro? How do you think he feels knowing that a guy with an arrow killed him from around the corner before he could work his magic on the flamethrower?

he/she/it should think of what they did wrong as they respawn, ie not holding down m1

[Dark Rush]

Originally posted by Hugh Jass:

Originally posted by Professor Pootis Fury:

Let's not forget Sniper's secondaries and the giant hitboxes on his melees. He has SMGs, Jarate, a backpack that recharges health+ no flinching and the Shahanshah (it's a new class, all together). I can agree that Sniper is very different with the Huntsman, but he can't have it both ways. The Huntsman offers long range damage, medium range and short range damage. I'm fine with mid range damage but why should a class with some of the most powerful weapons get a tool powerful enough to knockdown classes that need short range? Think about the Pyro? How do you think he feels knowing that a guy with an arrow killed him from around the corner before he could work his magic on the flamethrower?

he/she/it should think of what they did wrong as they respawn, ie not holding down m1

It's a he. And maybe he wasn't W M1ing like a noob. Perhaps he was just turning a corner.

[Meme Fortress 2]

Originally posted by Professor Pootis Fury:

Originally posted by Hugh Jass:

he/she/it should think of what they did wrong as they respawn, ie not holding down m1

It's an it. And maybe they weren't W M1ing like a PRO. Perhaps he was just turning a corner.

fix'd. also the huntsman isn't the only spammy weapon that gets blind kills unintentionally, and its not even the prime contender

[Tolna]

Originally posted by Professor Pootis Fury:

Let's not forget Sniper's secondaries and the giant hitboxes on his melees. He has SMGs, Jarate, a backpack that recharges health+ no flinching and the Shahanshah (it's a new class, all together). I can agree that Sniper is very different with the Huntsman, but he can't have it both ways. The Huntsman offers long range damage, medium range and short range damage. I'm fine with mid range damage but why should a class with some of the most powerful weapons get a tool powerful enough to knockdown classes that need short range? Think about the Pyro? How do you think he feels knowing that a guy with an arrow killed him from around the corner before he could work his magic on the flamethrower?

Now, hit boxes are a different story...

True...but the pyro can airblast the sniper into the air (where he can't use the bow), the heavy would mow him down before he can get a shot off, Scout can circle straif and abuse his speed, the spy can backstab, and a demoknight should just use nades or ambush charge.

There's a lot of defence against it and even though it's kinda wonky the thing is VERY hard to use. Esspecially at long range. I respect anyone who can reliably headshot from the distance of say....the balconies on 2forts.

[Dark Rush]

Originally posted by Hugh Jass:

Originally posted by Professor Pootis Fury:

It's a he. And maybe he wasn't W M1ing like a noob. Perhaps he was just turning a corner.

Broke it. also the huntsman isn't the only spammy weapon that gets blind kills unintentionally, and its not even the prime contender

Re- fix'd. It's a he. More than enough proof out there. And you're right, the Huntsman isn't the only spam weapon out there. That doesn't excuse it though.

[Dark Rush]

Originally posted by Tolna:

True...but the pyro can airblast the sniper into the air (where he can't use the bow), the heavy would mow him down before he can get a shot off, Scout can circle straif and abuse his speed, the spy can backstab, and a demoknight should just use nades or ambush charge.

There's a lot of defence against it and even though it's kinda wonky the thing is VERY hard to use. Esspecially at long range. I respect anyone who can reliably headshot from the distance of say....the balconies on 2forts.

First of all, that's the Pyro's job. He'll do that to any class. Also, why the hell would a Pyro go against a Heavy like that? If he is smart, he'll set him on fire and Axetinguish him. In addition, air blast negates movement including double jump so Scout is f**ked, Spy is f**ked, and Demo is double f**ked from the start.
Let's not go into hard or easy. Some weapons come naturally for some and not to others. That isn't a deciding factor. My opinion of hard or easy weapons means nothing to another player.

[Grizz]

I feel like it's pretty balanced... There are times like you example of the scout rush when you pop off a lucky arrow. Though is that any different than a lucky random crit? I'll admit it's supremely satisfying to see a scout come to a full stop and fall over rofl.