Spy Vs. Pyro

[A Parked Car]

Im more then sure this topic has been brought up several times, but im with most to all spies when i say this,

The Pyro is OP towards Spy

Now when i say this i want to make sure I'm not venting my anger towards the subject as most spies would, I mean, spy himself could be considered overpowered with a backstab that kills anyone in 1 hit, and we need a class that can outmatch him.

But what about all the other classes that can outmatch him?

You might say, well, you must be a skilled spy to outsmart those other classes.

But thats where i get stumped,
Since spy is recommended for skilled players, Why do we make it's nemises recommended for beginners? We spies already have to worry about every other class in TF2, and it might not of been a problem back then, but as TF2 and its players had become more experienced, spychecking had became a more diminishing factor to the already small fraction of skilled spies.

Now i don't want to propose a buff to the spy himself, but a counter towards his nemesis.
Yes, we do already have the spycicle but thats not exactly what i had in mind, nor a favorable weapon towards some spies.

In order to keep the spy balanced, we take one major part from both him and the pyro, the pyro, his flames, and the spy, his sapper.

It would be called "The Useless Frosty Sapper" or whatever strikes your imagination, but it would have the same attributes as follows:

Spy is 100% resistant towards fire
Removes sapping

Pyro's have always been a problem to most classes, why not have his nemmesis equally powerful?

Do you think this is a good idea?
Any ideas yourself?

[TheNoobishNinja]

Probably would be better if:
+Wearer will not catch fire while cloaked, but fire will stay
+75% fire resistance
-75% time to sap a building to destroy it

[TheNoobishNinja]

+75% time, I meant...

[MSAA]

That would be great, I'm tired of people Spychecking. Now Valve, MAKE AN ITEM THAT WILL MAKE SPIES HAVE FAIR FIGHT AGAINST PYROS!!!


~FYI I'm a spy~

[i am god]

Isn't sniper the spy's nemesis? :3
Anyway, the spy needs more stuffs; Even if it's new guns, new knifes, sappers or watches.. He doesn't have enough. I guess that could be nice somehow..

[Smug Anime Gone]

It's so easy to kill Pyro's as spy. Pull out your Ambassador or Revolver, or even Enforcer and snipe them. Pyro is short range for a reason.

[leafs43]

Spies are overpowered against snipers.

It's a give and take.

[Octavia]

Absolutely not; the Spy is a class that risks their lives in order to instantly kill enemies, and weapons that promote a safety net are not needed. Just look at the Dead Ringer; it's excellent for getting through choke-points, but it provides a safety net for unskilled players, in addition to making a skilled player less effective against him, either by buying him time to flee or forcing a prolonged engagement that's already one sided.

The Pyro counters the Spy, in the same manner that a Medic's Ubercharge counters an Engineer, and promoting a class which already has some advantages to counter their primary weakness is ridiculous; look at the Pomson, which can decimate a Medic or Spy with very little effort.

Spies don't need a buff, nor do Pyros need a nerf; there are circumstances Spies do not excel in, and you must accept that. The Heavy isn't a long ranged combatant, and is easily countered by Snipers; why not give him headshot resistance to allow him to stand up to his counter? Because it's unbalanced, doesn't promote team-based play and forces a skilled player to spend more effort on an unskilled player; all in all, a bad idea.

[Smug Anime Gone]

Originally posted by Octavia:

Absolutely not; the Spy is a class that risks their lives in order to instantly kill enemies, and weapons that promote a safety net are not needed. Just look at the Dead Ringer; it's excellent for getting through choke-points, but it provides a safety net for unskilled players, in addition to making a skilled player less effective against him, either by buying him time to flee or forcing a prolonged engagement that's already one sided.

The Pyro counters the Spy, in the same manner that a Medic's Ubercharge counters an Engineer, and promoting a class which already has some advantages to counter their primary weakness is ridiculous; look at the Pomson, which can decimate a Medic or Spy with very little effort.

Spies don't need a buff, nor do Pyros need a nerf; there are circumstances Spies do not excel in, and you must accept that. The Heavy isn't a long ranged combatant, and is easily countered by Snipers; why not give him headshot resistance to allow him to stand up to his counter? Because it's unbalanced, doesn't promote team-based play and forces a skilled player to spend more effort on an unskilled player; all in all, a bad idea.

/thread, i love you

[Ulfric]

I am and always have been an advocate just to make the spy flat out run faster. Not A LOT, just a little. Seriously, it would help and would be a small boost to all of the watches.

[Octavia]

Originally posted by Kaka:

I am and always have been an advocate just to make the spy flat out run faster. Not A LOT, just a little. Seriously, it would help and would be a small boost to all of the watches.

Yes, let us allow the Spy to outpace Medics, which allows them to already backstab targets in a much easier fashion, outpace every class but Scouts who chase him with his huge damage resistant Dead Ringer, flee more quickly and in general promote unskillful play.

If you didn't catch the sarcasm, it's not balanced; the Spy already runs faster than many primary backstab targets, and those who run at superior or equal speed, the Medic, Sniper and Engineer, are often occupied. If they are aware enough to see you, then you deserve to be outplayed; you shouldn't be rewarded because they turned their back for half a second and you get the jump on them, since that's ridiculously unfair. You get rewarded for outplaying them, not for being able to run faster than them.

[Ulfric]

Can spies consistently stay alive and get kills like a sniper? An engineer with his sentry farm? Without using the dead ringer? The current TF2 culture has any smart player spychecking pretty much every single player they see, and most of the maps are so full of choke points and spam that it's pretty much comical. Am I saying spies should be able to dominate everyone, throwing backstabs everywhere and winning a match by themselves? No, though a very good spy can do that, but face it, with everyone but the stupidest players already spy paranoid...it's unbalanced. Just a SMALL boost to run speed would do wonders.

[Octavia]

Originally posted by Kaka:

Can spies consistently stay alive and get kills like a sniper? An engineer with his sentry farm? Without using the dead ringer? The current TF2 culture has any smart player spychecking pretty much every single player they see, and most of the maps are so full of choke points and spam that it's pretty much comical. Am I saying spies should be able to dominate everyone, throwing backstabs everywhere and winning a match by themselves? No, though a very good spy can do that, but face it, with everyone but the stupidest players already spy paranoid...it's unbalanced. Just a SMALL boost to run speed would do wonders.

So you're saying that since players are skillfully checking enemies, and thus are aware of the presence of a Spy, that he should be buffed? Yes, we might as well buff Snipers because an aware player will stay out of their field of view. Engineers don't get consistent kills against smart players; they get maybe one for each player at most, and then a smart team will either build Uber or edge out the nest with projectiles, so your argument is moot.

A Spy isn't mean to stay alive consistently; he's meant to go for a high priority target that allows his team to push up, or gives his team a significant advantage. If he can get out of the situation, then great; he shouldn't, however, have an advantage in securing kills, considering he's arguably the easiest way to take care of Snipers, Medics and Engineers without massive prep via an Uber. You're saying a Spy should have an easier job because players are more aware; I say they shouldn't, because it means they need to outplay the competition. Ever tried swapping Watches or Knives in the middle of a round? It throws off enemies, which is what a Spy should be doing, and allows him to do his job easier; if you keep running the same set, people easily see what you're doing, and adjust accordingly.

[A Parked Car]

Originally posted by Octavia:

Absolutely not; the Spy is a class that risks their lives in order to instantly kill enemies, and weapons that promote a safety net are not needed. Just look at the Dead Ringer; it's excellent for getting through choke-points, but it provides a safety net for unskilled players, in addition to making a skilled player less effective against him, either by buying him time to flee or forcing a prolonged engagement that's already one sided.

The Pyro counters the Spy, in the same manner that a Medic's Ubercharge counters an Engineer, and promoting a class which already has some advantages to counter their primary weakness is ridiculous; look at the Pomson, which can decimate a Medic or Spy with very little effort.

Spies don't need a buff, nor do Pyros need a nerf; there are circumstances Spies do not excel in, and you must accept that. The Heavy isn't a long ranged combatant, and is easily countered by Snipers; why not give him headshot resistance to allow him to stand up to his counter? Because it's unbalanced, doesn't promote team-based play and forces a skilled player to spend more effort on an unskilled player; all in all, a bad idea.

I agree with most everything you say, and it slightly changes my opinion on the matter with the examples, but im going to have to stand my ground.

The pyro is already considered a W+M1 Class, he should not have a counter towards a class when he is already a problem towards most, his weakness is in range, and many of valves maps contain short distances in which a pyros attach range can certainly reach. I believe valve had done a great job with the countering classes but i cannot say the same for the pyro. Most of my anger comes from gameplay in which im doing a good job as spy, until half the team goes pyro, people have the mindset that if a spy is doing good simply switch to pyro.

Let me ask you this
If a class has another class that counters it,
Who counters pyro?

[Dolly Guaraná]

JCVHBJHVBXHJBV HXBH JBXHJ BHJXB

[Octavia]

Originally posted by A Parked Car:

I agree with most everything you say, and it slightly changes my opinion on the matter with the examples, but im going to have to stand my ground.

The pyro is already considered a W+M1 Class, he should not have a counter towards a class when he is already a problem towards most, his weakness is in range, and many of valves maps contain short distances in which a pyros attach range can certainly reach. I believe valve had done a great job with the countering classes but i cannot say the same for the pyro. Most of my anger comes from gameplay in which im doing a good job as spy, until half the team goes pyro, people have the mindset that if a spy is doing good simply switch to pyro.

Let me ask you this
If a class has another class that counters it,
Who counters pyro?

Problem towards most? A Heavy mows him down, a Medic can stand behind his patient, a Soldier has a Shotgun in addition to Rockets and mobility, a Demoman has projectiles and mobility, a Scout can outpace him while killing him, a Sniper has range, the Engineer has Sentries... Every class can counter him if played properly, unless he has excellent Airblast timing, in which case the Soldier and Demoman have more trouble; factor in a Direct Hit or Loch 'n' Load, which will mess up his usual timing, and they can get around it.

Not every class has a direct counter; the Soldier and Demoman have no specific counters, but there are ways to deal with them as most classes. If the Pyro is solely flaming, he's playing badly and can easily be dealt with; I've demolished many a Pyro who plays that way with ease, especially if your team has any sort of decency. Letting a Pyro get into his optimal range is your first mistake, while your second is not taking advantage of how weak he is outside his optimal range; both mistakes on your part. The Pyro is only a problem towards classes if you're bad, or if he's skilled; I rarely get demolished by Pyros, because many don't know how to play properly, and so I take advantage of it to kill them.

A Pyro can only excel in close range, and every class can either outpace him or damage him before he gets into this range; if you let a Heavy get into close range and rev up, you can't complain about how he demolished you in seconds, since you had ample opportunity to eliminate him beforehand. Same concept here; you can kill a Pyro before he can unleash his flames on you, unless he Airblasts projectiles well, which means he outplayed you, and thus earned the kill.