Sniper is unbalanced.

[the godmaker]

Hello people,
I'll make it short for yall.

Everyone knows that Sniper is unbalanced. Sniper has the range that allows him to kill you and allows him to not get punished for missing a shot (or for doing anything). Whatever he's doing, he's out of your range so you can't kill him. Even if you switch to one of his """"counters"""" (are the Sniper counters in the room with us?) the Sniper range makes it so that most of the time the fight will end up in the Sniper favor (by most of the time i mean everytime).

Now while i've had a pleasant time discussing with a lot of people the issues of Sniper, a lot of people that were willing to discuss with me thought Sniper definitely needed a change. Because he's overpowered. We discussed what could be made to theoretically balance Sniper and it was nice.

However people thinking Sniper WAS balanced and didn't think any changes didn't had any arguments to bring to the table, and weren't even willing to discuss. 99% of the "Sniper is balanced" guys were around like:
- "This is not true."
- "Sniper is good, get good skill issue."
- *Inspect my profile to write an unrelated answer about my profile*
- *Most unrelated answer ever written in mankind history*

Why is that?
(I mean i do know why is that, it's because Sniper is unbalanced and people trying to defend Sniper know themselves Sniper isn't balanced)

[社会の神]

Originally posted by the godmaker:

Everyone knows that Sniper is unbalanced.

This is not true.

[the godmaker]

Originally posted by 社会の神:

Originally posted by the godmaker:

Everyone knows that Sniper is unbalanced.

This is not true.

I think it is true. Sniper's range allows him to instakill every class without any risks. Not only that but if he miss his shot, he doesn't get punished and can shoot another insta-killing shot in 4 seconds. You would need to drastically change your way of playing to even get close to him, and chances are you'll die before even dealing damage to the Sniper.
This is neither balanced or fun.

[Lyncurion]

I was a medic main between 2009-2011 then moved on to sniper. In other words, I've played as a high-value target and then played as the sniper taking those down. Experience from two worlds. Took a decade long gaming break due to work and now I'm back sniping and healing again. Never gave a crap about official servers and MvM, it's always been community servers for my part and I haven't experienced much of the bot crisis. The latter has led human players to believe that there's something wrong about snipers when they're in fact quite easily tricked.

With that being said: It's easy to make snipers miss headshots by running in jagged patterns, aka not straight lines, and never make predictable jumps in one direction. Try to air strafe a bit by releasing W and using the mouse. Snipers will likewise calculate the time it takes for a medic to approach around a corner by the millisecond they see a beam particle effect on an enemy player. You can avoid their pre-fire skills but delaying the approach a few milliseconds or do an unpredictable, jagged move around the corner. Another stupidly fun thing you can do as heavy is to simply sit on the payload kart, spam crouch while spinning around and making tiny strafes. Occassionally harass distant snipers to reset their scope.

Play sniper and find out what makes your game easy or hard, then apply that knowledge to other classes.

[wifeburger]

rent free

[the godmaker]

Originally posted by Lyncurion:

I was a medic main between 2009-2011 then moved on to sniper. In other words, I've played as a high-value target and then played as the sniper taking those down. Experience from two worlds. Took a decade long gaming break due to work and now I'm back sniping and healing again. Never gave a crap about official servers and MvM, it's always been community servers for my part and I haven't experienced much of the bot crisis. The latter has led human players to believe that there's something wrong about snipers when they're in fact quite easily tricked.

With that being said: It's easy to make snipers miss headshots by running in jagged patterns, aka not straight lines, and never make predictable jumps in one direction. Try to air strafe a bit by releasing W and using the mouse. Snipers will likewise calculate the time it takes for a medic to approach around a corner by the millisecond they see a beam particle effect on an enemy player. You can avoid their pre-fire skills but delaying the approach a few milliseconds or do an unpredictable, jagged move around the corner. Another stupidly fun thing you can do as heavy is to simply sit on the payload kart, spam crouch while spinning around and making tiny strafes. Occassionally harass distant snipers to reset their scope.

Play sniper and find out what makes your game easy or hard, then apply that knowledge to other classes.

I appreciate the knowledge you gave me, however, Heavy's Minigun can't make Snipers flinch if the Sniper is at least 750 hammerunits away.
I assure you i've tried making Snipers miss their headshots, the reaction time of the average human is 250 milliseconds. Even if i was to go in a different direction every 200 milliseconds to prevent the Sniper from predicting where i'm going, they still end up headshotting me. And no matter the class i'm playing. From my experience, i have more chances to get headshotted when in a Sniper field of view than not, no matter what i do.
I have tried to get press every key on my keyboard, i've tried going into every direction while looking at the opposite way of where i'm going to fool the Sniper. I still end up getting headshotted.
On rare occasions, even if i'm hiding the Sniper just walks to where he can see me and headshot me. Which to me is the epitome of Sniper problem.

[Eighteen-Counts Trevor]

Originally posted by the godmaker:

Originally posted by 社会の神:

This is not true.

I think it is true. Sniper's range allows him to instakill every class without any risks. Not only that but if he miss his shot, he doesn't get punished and can shoot another insta-killing shot in 4 seconds. You would need to drastically change your way of playing to even get close to him, and chances are you'll die before even dealing damage to the Sniper.
This is neither balanced or fun.

All you need to do is respect the sightlines. The best way to do this is by taking flank routes. In the event that you're in a wide open space without flanks, get creative. There's probably a million ways to reach a sniper in an open space, pick one. It isn't rocket science.

[the godmaker]

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

All you need to do is respect the sightlines. The best way to do this is by taking flank routes. In the event that you're in a wide open space without flanks, get creative. There's probably a million ways to reach a sniper in an open space, pick one. It isn't rocket science.

That's what i'm doing, and that's why i think Sniper is unbalanced.
Sniper can prevent you from going in any part of the map he's looking at. If you know he's here, you won't peak if you don't wanna die. There is no room for error since he also has the ability to instakill.
Hiding all game just to be picked by the Sniper teammates is not fun and not balanced either.

To reach the Sniper you'll have to drastically change your way of playing. Heavy, Pyro, Medic and Engineer are all out of the equation.
To reach the Sniper, either you have a way of going around the whole Sniper team so you don't have to fight the Sniper's teammates (but it doesn't happen on a lot of maps) either you're basically screwed.

Scout is fast, and he has Bonk, he could in theory close the distance between himself and the Sniper, but he would get headshotted, or at least bodyshotted. The time it would take to the Scout to get to the Sniper he'd already be too low to continue to fight. And that's only if no teammates of the Snipers are around.

Soldier could rocket jump to bomb the Sniper and kill him. Except Sniper Rifle shots delete your momentum. you would take the rocket jump damage + fall damage + the Sniper rifle damage. Needless to say your chances are low now.

Demoman could sticky jump but since he doesn't have gunboats he would get noticed by the team trying to get health, or by the Sniper that would delete his momentum too. Demoman is the least viable class to take down the Sniper.

Sniper is the only real "counter" to Sniper which requires you to be better than the enemy Sniper, otherwise it's too bad for you i guess.

And Spy, assuming he doesn't get killed by the Sniper's teammates, could in theory get close to the Sniper while being unnoticed by both the Sniper and the Sniper's teammates.
But the Sniper can still quickscope you, he has the tool to get a guaranteed melee crit if you get in his melee range. And still has decent options to fight you if neither of those things happen.

Overall the Sniper has more chances to win against every class trying to get to him.
Drastically changing your way of playing to not even be sure to kill the Sniper is outright unbalanced and not fun.
Not even taking into consideration that the enemy team could have 2 Snipers. Making them even less killable.

[Eighteen-Counts Trevor]

Originally posted by the godmaker:

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

All you need to do is respect the sightlines. The best way to do this is by taking flank routes. In the event that you're in a wide open space without flanks, get creative. There's probably a million ways to reach a sniper in an open space, pick one. It isn't rocket science.

That's what i'm doing, and that's why i think Sniper is unbalanced.
Sniper can prevent you from going in any part of the map he's looking at. If you know he's here, you won't peak if you don't wanna die. There is no room for error since he also has the ability to instakill.
Hiding all game just to be picked by the Sniper teammates is not fun and not balanced either.

To reach the Sniper you'll have to drastically change your way of playing. Heavy, Pyro, Medic and Engineer are all out of the equation.
To reach the Sniper, either you have a way of going around the whole Sniper team so you don't have to fight the Sniper's teammates (but it doesn't happen on a lot of maps) either you're basically screwed.

Scout is fast, and he has Bonk, he could in theory close the distance between himself and the Sniper, but he would get headshotted, or at least bodyshotted. The time it would take to the Scout to get to the Sniper he'd already be too low to continue to fight. And that's only if no teammates of the Snipers are around.

Soldier could rocket jump to bomb the Sniper and kill him. Except Sniper Rifle shots delete your momentum. you would take the rocket jump damage + fall damage + the Sniper rifle damage. Needless to say your chances are low now.

Demoman could sticky jump but since he doesn't have gunboats he would get noticed by the team trying to get health, or by the Sniper that would delete his momentum too. Demoman is the least viable class to take down the Sniper.

Sniper is the only real "counter" to Sniper which requires you to be better than the enemy Sniper, otherwise it's too bad for you i guess.

And Spy, assuming he doesn't get killed by the Sniper's teammates, could in theory get close to the Sniper while being unnoticed by both the Sniper and the Sniper's teammates.
But the Sniper can still quickscope you, he has the tool to get a guaranteed melee crit if you get in his melee range. And still has decent options to fight you if neither of those things happen.

Overall the Sniper has more chances to win against every class trying to get to him.
Drastically changing your way of playing to not even be sure to kill the Sniper is outright unbalanced and not fun.
Not even taking into consideration that the enemy team could have 2 Snipers. Making them even less killable.

I'm going to repeat myself here because it applies. Go somewhere else. You are not confined to the sniper's sightline most of the time. In the event that you are, you can still shoot at the sniper, forcing him to move out of the way or die from constant chip because damage does add up. Regardless of how long he's out of the way if he does move, he's not shooting anybody. You can just shoot constantly to effectively lock him down. Like I said, get creative.

Taking flanks is not "drastically changing the way you play." Anybody can take them, and Medic and Engineer aren't even supposed to be fighting anyways. Literally the only listed class that has any merit is Heavy because he's directly countered by Sniper and even then he can still take flanks. Pyro has splash damage, meaning you can lock the sniper down. If he's using the danger shield, flank him and use your shotgun. He's going to have a harder time killing you when he can't reliably one-shot you and yes, point-blank headshots are unreliable because you have no room for error. If you're having more problems getting to the sniper than you are actually dying to the sniper, then the sniper is not the problem.

There's a simple solution to getting headshot as Scout: take a flank route. If you can't, move unpredictably.

There's a simple solution to getting your momentum killed as Soldier and Demo: take a flank route. If you can't, move unpredictably. Alternatively, shoot the sniper. Splash really helps you lock snipers down if you haven't noticed.

Being better at sniper is literally not required to make sniper not a problem. Things would be a lot easier for you if you stopped thinking "if my enemy is dead then there is no problem." Since Sniper is the only class that can kill you from any distance, your goal changes from "kill the enemy" to "make sure the enemy can't do ♥♥♥♥" and while killing is covered by that, you don't exclusively need to kill the sniper to stop him from doing anything.

Point-blank headshots are unreliable. The Sniper effectively has one chance to kill you before you either backstab him or shoot him twice depending on what you want to do, and that's IF he gets the chance to react.

Literally the best ways to deal with the sniper are piss easy. They effectively boil down to "spam projectiles," "avoid the sightline," and "don't move in a straight line." Once you're up close, you most likely win. Snipers aren't omnipotent, sure they can check their flanks every now and then but they don't know if you're even coming for them. Hell, sometimes they might even check at the wrong time and die anyways. It doesn't matter how good a Sniper is, once you catch them off guard they're all dead meat unless you ♥♥♥♥ up big.

[the godmaker]

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

I'm going to repeat myself here because it applies. Go somewhere else. You are not confined to the sniper's sightline most of the time. In the event that you are, you can still shoot at the sniper, forcing him to move out of the way or die from constant chip because damage does add up. Regardless of how long he's out of the way if he does move, he's not shooting anybody. You can just shoot constantly to effectively lock him down. Like I said, get creative.

(in my experience) I pretty much am, flanks routes doesn't mean there won't be any of the Sniper's teammate. I don't know about you but i see a lot of half-decent team keeping somewhat of a close eye on their teammates if they need help. That includes the Sniper. Just like for a lot of other cases, you don't want to let a flank Scout go behind, or a Spy, or a Soldier, or a Demo. Some teams are just that smart, they won't let you go past them. Flank route or not. Forcing you into a fight with one of the Sniper's teammates before getting to the Sniper. If the Sniper is not stupid, he'll help his teammate and kill you. But even if the event that the team isn't that good at keeping an eye on their teammates shooting at the Sniper means being in his sightline, because i'm probably not at an effective range for any of my weapons to deal significant damage for the Sniper to move. I'll probably get headshotted, or if the Sniper feels like killing me with ease, bodyshotted.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

Taking flanks is not "drastically changing the way you play." Anybody can take them, and Medic and Engineer aren't even supposed to be fighting anyways. Literally the only listed class that has any merit is Heavy because he's directly countered by Sniper and even then he can still take flanks. Pyro has splash damage, meaning you can lock the sniper down. If he's using the danger shield, flank him and use your shotgun. He's going to have a harder time killing you when he can't reliably one-shot you and yes, point-blank headshots are unreliable because you have no room for error. If you're having more problems getting to the sniper than you are actually dying to the sniper, then the sniper is not the problem.

(IN MY EXPERIENCE) It kinda is, most classes can take Flank in order to perform somewhat of a surprise attack on the enemy. Because of the Sniper's range, you can't just take a Flank route on a map with any class and expect to be done with it, because you may have to take another Flank route, or even a main route in order to reach the Sniper, the greater is the distance, the greater are your chance of getting killed why trying to get to the Sniper. You'll spent most part of your time in the Sniper effective range while he isn't in yours.
Heavy isn't "countered" by Sniper he's basically made useless. Most "counters" don't prevent the whole class from doing anything. Spy can kill a Pyro with his gun, he can equip the Spycicle, it's just easier for the Pyro to kill the Spy most of the time, Scout can kill an Engineer with his gun, even destroy his sentry. It's just easier for the Engineer to kill the Scout most of the time. As for Heavy he literally can't do anything against Sniper because of how slow he is, he either hide or die. There's no other option for Heavy, and i love Heavy, he's my second most played class. But when there's a Sniper in the enemy team i'm pṛetty much forced to change class.
(IN MY EXPERIENCE) Sniper will look carefully for anyone trying to Flank him, after all he doesn't have to worry too much about the guys that aren't even trying to get to him. Pyro can in theory take a Flank and get "close" to the Sniper, but not close enough, Sniper will headshot me. Point-blank quickscope are indeed not that common, but if you're at point blank you're in the -195 melee Sniper range, which means death too. If you're not then you're far enough for a headshot.
I'm having as much trouble getting to the Sniper than fighting the Sniper, his teammates won't let me go past them. If they do, the walking-back-to-the-frontline Heavy will kill me, if there isn't any then there's a Sentry waiting for me. If there isn't any of that i'll probably be killed by the Sniper. I don't see that as a me problem, i'm not that good but i'm far from being bad at the game. Literally nothing is a problem for me except Sniper.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

There's a simple solution to getting headshot as Scout: take a flank route. If you can't, move unpredictably.

There's a simple solution to getting your momentum killed as Soldier and Demo: take a flank route. If you can't, move unpredictably. Alternatively, shoot the sniper. Splash really helps you lock snipers down if you haven't noticed.

(IN MY EXPERIENCE) I know, i've heard that so many time you can't just imagine how much times i've moved in ways that not even the game could predict. I'm moving in every way, fast enough to prevent the Sniper from predicting, not looking at where i'm going to confuse the Sniper. It doesn't matter the Sniper will headshot me, or if he's only "new at the game" then bodyshot me. Assuming one of his teammates hasn't killed me already. I swear i've tried, i can trick every class into missing their projectiles shots, Soldiers and Demos, going close to the Heavy to get out of his "effective" range, same for Scouts 1v1.
The Sniper just hit his shot, i guess it's not that hard hitting your shots nowadays, even on a moving target. I play this game everyday, there isn't a day i don't try "moving unpredictably" to avoid the few times i have to pass a Sniper sightline. It works every 1 in 10 times.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

Being better at sniper is literally not required to make sniper not a problem. Things would be a lot easier for you if you stopped thinking "if my enemy is dead then there is no problem." Since Sniper is the only class that can kill you from any distance, your goal changes from "kill the enemy" to "make sure the enemy can't do ♥♥♥♥" and while killing is covered by that, you don't exclusively need to kill the sniper to stop him from doing anything.

And that's literally why he's not fun, it's so hard to kill him you basically resort to "make sure the enemy can't do ♥♥♥♥" and that only last for so long before he becomes a threat again to a whole 2/3 of the map. I'm having fun in every situation in TF2 but this one situation with keeping a Sniper busy is outright the least amount of fun i've ever had in my entire life, i'd rather watch all of my family die than do that again.
I'm always trying so hard against a class that doesn't even have to lock in to be competent.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

Point-blank headshots are unreliable. The Sniper effectively has one chance to kill you before you either backstab him or shoot him twice depending on what you want to do, and that's IF he gets the chance to react.

Literally the best ways to deal with the sniper are piss easy. They effectively boil down to "spam projectiles," "avoid the sightline," and "don't move in a straight line." Once you're up close, you most likely win. Snipers aren't omnipotent, sure they can check their flanks every now and then but they don't know if you're even coming for them. Hell, sometimes they might even check at the wrong time and die anyways. It doesn't matter how good a Sniper is, once you catch them off guard they're all dead meat unless you ♥♥♥♥ up big.

Yes point-blanks headshots are unreliable, but that's either you're in his melee range and die to a guaranteed crit, or you're not and you die to a headshot. If i'm a Spy it'll work ONCE but not twice, the Sniper will become super aware (because he doesn't have to be aware about anything else) and the second i get close he'll hear it. Now that 2 shots/backstab you were talking about is unreliable. Giving the Sniper just as much chance as me to kill him. If he has Jarate, he can turn you into a 2 shots easy kill too.
I can spam projectiles all day long the Sniper ain't in my effective range. The single amount of pressure of being in a Sniper sightline, knowing anytime he press M1 you might get -150 removed from your health is downright horrendous.
You're underestimating the ability of some Snipers to become self-aware. As a Medic main, i just know when there's a Spy around, i'll turn my back for only 0.1 second and spot the Spy. Spies are never an issue, It's just easier for Sniper to take care of them.

Sniper is the second most-played class. It means it's likely for one of the GOOD players in the enemy team to be a Sniper, and if he is i can tell you right now your chances of killing him are below 0%, super self-aware, doesn't miss a single-shot, stay kinda close to his teammates, a sentry, or a healthpack.

[dax]

Originally posted by 社会の神:

Originally posted by the godmaker:

Everyone knows that Sniper is unbalanced.

This is not true.

no
it's literally true and if someone says sniper is balanced or that he's not a problem in tf2 that person doesn't even know the game he's playing on

it's just as easy as taking a glance at Highlander (The comp mode that makes both teams run sniper 24/7) and you can easily see how brutally opressive and broken the class is lol

[Eighteen-Counts Trevor]

Originally posted by the godmaker:

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

I'm going to repeat myself here because it applies. Go somewhere else. You are not confined to the sniper's sightline most of the time. In the event that you are, you can still shoot at the sniper, forcing him to move out of the way or die from constant chip because damage does add up. Regardless of how long he's out of the way if he does move, he's not shooting anybody. You can just shoot constantly to effectively lock him down. Like I said, get creative.

(in my experience) I pretty much am, flanks routes doesn't mean there won't be any of the Sniper's teammate. I don't know about you but i see a lot of half-decent team keeping somewhat of a close eye on their teammates if they need help. That includes the Sniper. Just like for a lot of other cases, you don't want to let a flank Scout go behind, or a Spy, or a Soldier, or a Demo. Some teams are just that smart, they won't let you go past them. Flank route or not. Forcing you into a fight with one of the Sniper's teammates before getting to the Sniper. If the Sniper is not stupid, he'll help his teammate and kill you. But even if the event that the team isn't that good at keeping an eye on their teammates shooting at the Sniper means being in his sightline, because i'm probably not at an effective range for any of my weapons to deal significant damage for the Sniper to move. I'll probably get headshotted, or if the Sniper feels like killing me with ease, bodyshotted.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

Taking flanks is not "drastically changing the way you play." Anybody can take them, and Medic and Engineer aren't even supposed to be fighting anyways. Literally the only listed class that has any merit is Heavy because he's directly countered by Sniper and even then he can still take flanks. Pyro has splash damage, meaning you can lock the sniper down. If he's using the danger shield, flank him and use your shotgun. He's going to have a harder time killing you when he can't reliably one-shot you and yes, point-blank headshots are unreliable because you have no room for error. If you're having more problems getting to the sniper than you are actually dying to the sniper, then the sniper is not the problem.

(IN MY EXPERIENCE) It kinda is, most classes can take Flank in order to perform somewhat of a surprise attack on the enemy. Because of the Sniper's range, you can't just take a Flank route on a map with any class and expect to be done with it, because you may have to take another Flank route, or even a main route in order to reach the Sniper, the greater is the distance, the greater are your chance of getting killed why trying to get to the Sniper. You'll spent most part of your time in the Sniper effective range while he isn't in yours.
Heavy isn't "countered" by Sniper he's basically made useless. Most "counters" don't prevent the whole class from doing anything. Spy can kill a Pyro with his gun, he can equip the Spycicle, it's just easier for the Pyro to kill the Spy most of the time, Scout can kill an Engineer with his gun, even destroy his sentry. It's just easier for the Engineer to kill the Scout most of the time. As for Heavy he literally can't do anything against Sniper because of how slow he is, he either hide or die. There's no other option for Heavy, and i love Heavy, he's my second most played class. But when there's a Sniper in the enemy team i'm pṛetty much forced to change class.
(IN MY EXPERIENCE) Sniper will look carefully for anyone trying to Flank him, after all he doesn't have to worry too much about the guys that aren't even trying to get to him. Pyro can in theory take a Flank and get "close" to the Sniper, but not close enough, Sniper will headshot me. Point-blank quickscope are indeed not that common, but if you're at point blank you're in the -195 melee Sniper range, which means death too. If you're not then you're far enough for a headshot.
I'm having as much trouble getting to the Sniper than fighting the Sniper, his teammates won't let me go past them. If they do, the walking-back-to-the-frontline Heavy will kill me, if there isn't any then there's a Sentry waiting for me. If there isn't any of that i'll probably be killed by the Sniper. I don't see that as a me problem, i'm not that good but i'm far from being bad at the game. Literally nothing is a problem for me except Sniper.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

There's a simple solution to getting headshot as Scout: take a flank route. If you can't, move unpredictably.

There's a simple solution to getting your momentum killed as Soldier and Demo: take a flank route. If you can't, move unpredictably. Alternatively, shoot the sniper. Splash really helps you lock snipers down if you haven't noticed.

(IN MY EXPERIENCE) I know, i've heard that so many time you can't just imagine how much times i've moved in ways that not even the game could predict. I'm moving in every way, fast enough to prevent the Sniper from predicting, not looking at where i'm going to confuse the Sniper. It doesn't matter the Sniper will headshot me, or if he's only "new at the game" then bodyshot me. Assuming one of his teammates hasn't killed me already. I swear i've tried, i can trick every class into missing their projectiles shots, Soldiers and Demos, going close to the Heavy to get out of his "effective" range, same for Scouts 1v1.
The Sniper just hit his shot, i guess it's not that hard hitting your shots nowadays, even on a moving target. I play this game everyday, there isn't a day i don't try "moving unpredictably" to avoid the few times i have to pass a Sniper sightline. It works every 1 in 10 times.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

Being better at sniper is literally not required to make sniper not a problem. Things would be a lot easier for you if you stopped thinking "if my enemy is dead then there is no problem." Since Sniper is the only class that can kill you from any distance, your goal changes from "kill the enemy" to "make sure the enemy can't do ♥♥♥♥" and while killing is covered by that, you don't exclusively need to kill the sniper to stop him from doing anything.

And that's literally why he's not fun, it's so hard to kill him you basically resort to "make sure the enemy can't do ♥♥♥♥" and that only last for so long before he becomes a threat again to a whole 2/3 of the map. I'm having fun in every situation in TF2 but this one situation with keeping a Sniper busy is outright the least amount of fun i've ever had in my entire life, i'd rather watch all of my family die than do that again.
I'm always trying so hard against a class that doesn't even have to lock in to be competent.

Originally posted by Bots Are A Government Conspiracy:

Point-blank headshots are unreliable. The Sniper effectively has one chance to kill you before you either backstab him or shoot him twice depending on what you want to do, and that's IF he gets the chance to react.

Literally the best ways to deal with the sniper are piss easy. They effectively boil down to "spam projectiles," "avoid the sightline," and "don't move in a straight line." Once you're up close, you most likely win. Snipers aren't omnipotent, sure they can check their flanks every now and then but they don't know if you're even coming for them. Hell, sometimes they might even check at the wrong time and die anyways. It doesn't matter how good a Sniper is, once you catch them off guard they're all dead meat unless you ♥♥♥♥ up big.

Yes point-blanks headshots are unreliable, but that's either you're in his melee range and die to a guaranteed crit, or you're not and you die to a headshot. If i'm a Spy it'll work ONCE but not twice, the Sniper will become super aware (because he doesn't have to be aware about anything else) and the second i get close he'll hear it. Now that 2 shots/backstab you were talking about is unreliable. Giving the Sniper just as much chance as me to kill him. If he has Jarate, he can turn you into a 2 shots easy kill too.
I can spam projectiles all day long the Sniper ain't in my effective range. The single amount of pressure of being in a Sniper sightline, knowing anytime he press M1 you might get -150 removed from your health is downright horrendous.
You're underestimating the ability of some Snipers to become self-aware. As a Medic main, i just know when there's a Spy around, i'll turn my back for only 0.1 second and spot the Spy. Spies are never an issue, It's just easier for Sniper to take care of them.

Sniper is the second most-played class. It means it's likely for one of the GOOD players in the enemy team to be a Sniper, and if he is i can tell you right now your chances of killing him are below 0%, super self-aware, doesn't miss a single-shot, stay kinda close to his teammates, a sentry, or a healthpack.

Like I said, if the team is killing you more than the sniper, the sniper is not the problem. You aren't supposed to shoot once and expect the sniper to piss off, you must maintain pressure. The sniper can't headshot you if he needs to worry about another rocket/flare/whatever you used to force the sniper to move.

Do you understand the concept of a flank route? Flanks are specifically outside the sniper's sightline. That's the whole reason you take a flank, the sniper is unable to kill you while you are in the flank. He can't shoot around corners, you are safe from the sniper.

I'd argue there are several counters that completely shut down the class they counter. Yeah the Spy can just shoot the Pyro but by the time you've got a pyro on your tail you're probably already ♥♥♥♥♥♥. Scout can't "just shoot the engineer and then the sentry" the sentry will turn him into powder before he can even blink. If we're playing by your logic, the Heavy can just take a flank, or even just shoot the sniper because chip damage builds up.

If you're giving the sniper a chance to hit you before you can do anything, you've ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up big. He isn't omnipotent, he isn't perfect, his 195 melee swing takes time to pull off that you can use to your advantage, and if you've made him change his secondary to the Danger Shield he can't kill you with a 195 melee swing.

You already know what I'm going to say to this, I'm just going to start skipping parts that would force me to repeat myself.

Sounds like a skill issue on your part, straight up.

Again, you don't need to kill him. He is the one class that doesn't need to be dead in order to not be a problem. Plus, it isn't hard to kill a sniper. That's the whole point of this argument.

Sniper doesn't have a guaranteed crit unless he's using the jarate + bushwacka, which takes time to set up in the first place. The trick is not giving the sniper time in the first place. Casual players barely learn anything and you aren't encountering god snipers every match you play, chances are you're just bad at killing sniper.

[社会の神]

Originally posted by perfect slumbers:

no
it's literally true and if someone says sniper is balanced or that he's not a problem in tf2 that person doesn't even know the game he's playing on

I have no knowledge of the Sniper class being unbalanced in the manner described in the OP so the statement has been categorically disproven.

Originally posted by perfect slumbers:

it's just as easy as taking a glance at Highlander (The comp mode that makes both teams run sniper 24/7) and you can easily see how brutally opressive and broken the class is lol

That is not an observation I have heard before.

[dax]

Originally posted by 社会の神:

Originally posted by perfect slumbers:

no
it's literally true and if someone says sniper is balanced or that he's not a problem in tf2 that person doesn't even know the game he's playing on

I have no knowledge of the Sniper class being unbalanced in the manner described in the OP so the statement has been categorically disproven.

Originally posted by perfect slumbers:

it's just as easy as taking a glance at Highlander (The comp mode that makes both teams run sniper 24/7) and you can easily see how brutally opressive and broken the class is lol

That is not an observation I have heard before.

Originally posted by 社会の神:

Originally posted by perfect slumbers:

no
it's literally true and if someone says sniper is balanced or that he's not a problem in tf2 that person doesn't even know the game he's playing on

I have no knowledge of the Sniper class being unbalanced in the manner described in the OP so the statement has been categorically disproven.

Originally posted by perfect slumbers:

it's just as easy as taking a glance at Highlander (The comp mode that makes both teams run sniper 24/7) and you can easily see how brutally opressive and broken the class is lol

That is not an observation I have heard before.

XD

[Ulysses]

these walls of text are the walls trump wanted for the US borders

[Quill]

I think the main issue with Sniper is map design

People can argue that you just gotta flank around his sightline

However this argument doesn't hold up when the sightline is your spawn door like on Upward and Badwater

If Red has a SINGLE good sniper he can completely stuff a Blu push

Then people get frustrated and go Sniper

Then people see their sniper cannot take out the Red Snipe and go Sniper themselves

Repeat until Blu loses and they have 8 snipers. Effect is made worse if the Sniper has backup like a Spy checking Pyro or a Pocket medic

If there are proper flanks and Blu can have a proper area they can form up that protects them from long open sightlines then they can much better deal with a good sniper