A Sniper Nerf Idea from a Sniper Main

[Kravkik]

I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing the 1,000th nerf sniper thread, however most of these threads are not constructive and fail to offer any meaningful solutions to the main issues people have with the class. As a sniper main with hundreds of hours on the class, I believe I'll be able to provide some simple but effective solutions that properly address 3 main issues people have with the class in addition to making the class harder to abuse with cheats, while not making him too underpowered.

Issue #1 Cheaters/Bots Abuse His Instant 150 Damage Headshots

Sniper can immediatly kill classes who have 150hp or below just by scoping in. While the reason he is able to do this is to reward skilled sniper mains, it has led to the proliferation of bots and cheaters who shut down entire matches by instantly headshotting everyone before they can react. In addition, players are frustrated when skilled snipers can instantly kill them and many of their teammates in seconds with no counterplay.

Solution: Reduce Base Headshot Damage

By reducing the sniper's base headshot damage to 100, bots can no longer instantly kill players before they can react, and cheaters will have a harder time playing sniper as they will be vulnerable when charging up a headshot. Skilled sniper mains will no longer be able to instantly kill players at close range without risk involved, and sniper duels no longer revolve around who can second scope the other first. Overall, this will force snipers to be more stationary and vulnerable, however the cap of 450 damage should remain unchanged.

Issue #2 Bodyshot Damage is Too High

Self explanatory, 50-150 damage is too high for how little you have to aim to dish it out.

Solution: Reduce Bodyshot Damage

Reducing the base bodyshot damage to 25, and capping it at 100 when charged will ensure that sniper players will primarily need to land headshots in order to instantly kill classes in addition to reducing the effectiveness of bots/cheaters. However since the Sydney Sleeper relies on bodyshot damage, it should be reworked in some way.

Issue #3 Snipers Holding Sightlines are Hard to See in the Heat of Battle

If the previous solutions were implemented, most snipers will stick to charging up shots while holding sightlines. While normally you may be able to tell if a sniper is holding a sightline via a glowing dot that becomes more intense as they charge up a shot, snipers are able to simply move their crosshair to the side of an entrance to conceal their dot, making it difficult to know if there's a sniper holding the entrance you want to go through.

Solution: Replace Sniper's Dot with the MvM Sniper Bot's Laser

This idea has been tested by youtuber shounic to great success, the only change I would make is having the beam's opacity start high, and gradually get lower as the sniper charges his shot rather than being stuck at 0 opacity. Sniper players still may be able to hide their beam from 1 entrance, but at least a player approaching from another route can see the laser and possibly inform their team.

All of these changes combined will instantly make sniper feel much more fair to fight against while still remaining a strong pick for skilled players in addition to reducing the effectiveness of the bots and cheaters without needing to update the anticheat.

edit: typos

[ShSilver]

this will force snipers to be more stationary and vulnerable

Sniper is already plenty sedentary as a class. Your changes simply make him bad at his job of picking high priority by making him unable to respond to the fast pace of the game and readjust on the fly. It especially nerfs counter-sniping and makes picking off Medics who know how to play the game - IE only show their face when they have full uber - something unfeasible. In particular, forcing him to charge his shots to get any pick while ALSO revealing himself at all times with the laser before he's even fired, makes it far too easy to avoid him - more predictable than he already is.

Also, this

no longer be able to instantly kill players at close range without risk involved

is an incredibly a reductive take. Sniper has to plant his feet instead of fleeing to a safer position, and gamble on his enemy having predictable movement in a range where the smallest strafe can completely throw it your aim.

You want to nerf Sniper? Make tracers a stock feature so he's revealed *when he shoots* and give him a clip so every few shots he has to pause to audibly reload and give enemies an opening.

[悪さはダメだとわかん]

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

As a sniper main with hundreds of hours on the class

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_10180885135

Kills: 2

[shrek's outhouse]

here is another suggestion from a sniper main
quickscopes within a certain distance = 150 damage
quickscopes from far away = 102 damage (like the ambassador fall-off, but a little less severe)

The bazaar bargain needs a complete rework.

encourage charging shots, but give the sniper a chance at close range. I deserve a kill on a double-jumping scout if I flick on his tiny head (i'll never hit his tiny head! it's so tiny, such a tiny freaking head.)

[Bob]

Автор сообщения: 悪さはダメだとわかん

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

As a sniper main with hundreds of hours on the class

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_10180885135

Kills: 2

The other one has ten thousand kill.

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: AimBob

Ok, it seems some people have already responded. All right, I've turned RGB in my keyboard, it typing time.

1. The first argument argues that the nerf should be given because of arbitrary skill roof that bots "hit" by just having a perfect aim. This is not a balance proposition but a "solution" to a bot problem. The same way the scout, heavy, gun-spy and battle engineer could be nerf if the official servers were flooded with bots playing as these classes/sub-classes.

2. You want to decrease body shot damage to really low numbers. Waiting for full charge to deal meatshot shotgun damage is pretty disappointing.

3. Well, the others have shown you the shoutnic video already. So I guess it won't add much here. It'll be simply chaotic visually. But the laser show throughout the whole much would be funny.

And the same argument could be made for classes like demoman and engineer wrangler that can sit far away from the front line and charge up sticky bombs/shoot with wrangler. Maybe the issue here is not the sniper itself but the huge part of TF2 design. Maybe the game way too often creates stalemates with fixed battlefields dominated by engineers strongholds and can often be only destroyed by literal invincibility provided by medic. This inability to beat the sniper in such scenarios might stem from problem stated above. Abolish Medic and Engineer.

Also because of the comment of the green ninja now I doubt if there is any point in writing this. I mean, sniper would be really weak if these were officially added.

Abolish Medic and Engineer.

Автор сообщения: AimBob

This is not a balance proposition but a "solution" to a bot problem.

It is a balance proposition, while I used bots and cheaters as the main issue people have with the class, skilled snipers are still very much capable of shutting down chokes as I often do.

Автор сообщения: AimBob

The same way the scout, heavy, gun-spy and battle engineer could be nerf if the official servers were flooded with bots playing as these classes/sub-classes.

I fail to see how heavies, scouts, gun spies, and battle engineers can instantly kill any player in their sightline. Sure you may take a lot of damage, but it's much more easy to counter by yourself than several bot snipers

Автор сообщения: AimBob

Waiting for full charge to deal meatshot shotgun damage is pretty disappointing.

100 damage is still a decent amount, only 50 less than 150, and I don't think gibus snipers should be rewarded for hardscoping for bodyshots over headshots. This way snipers also can't just headshot someone for 100 damage and then instantly shoot again to deal 50 more damage, they will still be hardscoping yes, but will be going for headshots much more since that's the quickest way to kill classes with these changes in place.

Автор сообщения: AimBob

It'll be simply chaotic visually.

I disagree, it works well in mvm and the only reason it looked chaotic was due to the fact that he set the laser to always be on regardless if the sniper was scoping in or not, in addition to being stuck at full intensity. Changing it so that it's not visible until scoping in and making it get more intense as the sniper charges his shot would make it much less chaotic visually.

Автор сообщения: AimBob

And the same argument could be made for classes like demoman and engineer wrangler that can sit far away from the front line and charge up sticky bombs/shoot with wrangler.

While a demoman could instantly kill you with sync shots depending on the class, it takes time to set up and has a lot of risk compared to sniping from afar, but engineer does not instantly kill other players so I fail to see the comparison especially since he has damage falloff.

Автор сообщения: AimBob

sniper would be really weak if these were officially added.

I highly disagree, he would still be a strong pick for sniper mains like me while making it so that we have to pick our targets more carefully instead of just quickscoping everyone, he will still be great at taking out medics and heavies or other powerclasses, the only difference is that he now has to pick their shots more carefully and wait longer in between them.

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: 悪さはダメだとわかん

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

As a sniper main with hundreds of hours on the class

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_10180885135

Kills: 2

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_10831232886 I like how you deliberatly ignored the sniper rifle literally right next to it, congrats on making a fool of yourself.

Just to spite you I'm going to start using that botkiller rifle as well til I get hale's own just to make an even bigger fool out of you in the future.

[Zumo Nacho INC]

Seems reasonable enough

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: ShSilver

this will force snipers to be more stationary and vulnerable

Sniper is already plenty sedentary as a class. Your changes simply make him bad at his job of picking high priority by making him unable to respond to the fast pace of the game and readjust on the fly. It especially nerfs counter-sniping and makes picking off Medics who know how to play the game - IE only show their face when they have full uber - something unfeasible. In particular, forcing him to charge his shots to get any pick while ALSO revealing himself at all times with the laser before he's even fired, makes it far too easy to avoid him - more predictable than he already is.

Also, this

no longer be able to instantly kill players at close range without risk involved

is an incredibly a reductive take. Sniper has to plant his feet instead of fleeing to a safer position, and gamble on his enemy having predictable movement in a range where the smallest strafe can completely throw it your aim.

You want to nerf Sniper? Make tracers a stock feature so he's revealed *when he shoots* and give him a clip so every few shots he has to pause to audibly reload and give enemies an opening.

Автор сообщения: ShSilver

Your changes simply make him bad at his job of picking high priority by making him unable to respond to the fast pace of the game and readjust on the fly.

If anything my changes would make it so that picking high priority targets would be emphasized rather than just quickscoping anything with a pulse.

Автор сообщения: ShSilver

It especially nerfs counter-sniping

Yes but it nerfs the worst aspect of it which is second scoping, snipers will be forced to rely on their aim rather than just simply unscoping an rescoping once the other sniper scopes in.

Автор сообщения: ShSilver

forcing him to charge his shots to get any pick while ALSO revealing himself at all times with the laser before he's even fired, makes it far too easy to avoid him - more predictable than he already is.

The main problem people have with him besides bots and cheaters is that they can't see an indication of what sightline he's holding, which is an intended game mechanic due to the dots existing, the problem is snipers are easily able to hide their dots, with the lasers, they can still hide their dot from one entrance, but either a teammate from another route can point it out, or they could slip up and reveal their laser. It adds much more counterplay which is what people feel the class lacks.

Автор сообщения: ShSilver

is an incredibly a reductive take. Sniper has to plant his feet instead of fleeing to a safer position

All I'm going to say is that sniper has an smg for a reason.

Автор сообщения: ShSilver

and give him a clip so every few shots he has to pause to audibly reload and give enemies an opening.

literally accomplishes the very thing you were arguing against which is to increase the intervals of time he has before being able to instakill 5 out of 9 classes

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: shrek's outhouse

here is another suggestion from a sniper main
quickscopes within a certain distance = 150 damage
quickscopes from far away = 102 damage (like the ambassador fall-off, but a little less severe)

The bazaar bargain needs a complete rework.

encourage charging shots, but give the sniper a chance at close range. I deserve a kill on a double-jumping scout if I flick on his tiny head (i'll never hit his tiny head! it's so tiny, such a tiny freaking head.)

I do enjoy quickscopes a lot, so yeah it would hurt to say goodbye to them, but honestly the smg would still do a good job of finishing off enemies at close range after you headshot the enemy, and reducing overall headshot damage regardless of range would make it more of a trade off to use the darwins and razorback.

[Pocket Medic]

When I see these threads I think: do you actually have evidence that Sniper is unbalanced relative to other classes? Getting kills is not the same as contributing to the objective.

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: Pocket Medic

When I see these threads I think: do you actually have evidence that Sniper is unbalanced relative to other classes? Getting kills is not the same as contributing to the objective.

Getting kills contributes to the objective especially when those kills are on medics and heavies, and even more so on defense.

[Pocket Medic]

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

Автор сообщения: Pocket Medic

When I see these threads I think: do you actually have evidence that Sniper is unbalanced relative to other classes? Getting kills is not the same as contributing to the objective.

Getting kills contributes to the objective especially when those kills are on medics and heavies, and even more so on defense.

Getting an objective isnt just about pick kills however, you have to push where the enemy has superiority and deal with that, good snipers can succeed of course, but that is true of any class and therefore if sniper is to be nerfed I would want to see how the average player has more impact just by switching to sniper.

There is a reason sniper is a pick class in comp.

[悪さはダメだとわかん]

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

Автор сообщения: 悪さはダメだとわかん

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_10180885135

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_10831232886 I like how you deliberatly ignored the sniper rifle literally right next to it, congrats on making a fool of yourself.

That's not yours.

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

Just to spite you I'm going to start using that botkiller rifle as well til I get hale's own just to make an even bigger fool out of you in the future.

Good luck with that.

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: Pocket Medic

Автор сообщения: Kravkik

Getting kills contributes to the objective especially when those kills are on medics and heavies, and even more so on defense.

Getting an objective isnt just about pick kills however, you have to push where the enemy has superiority and deal with that, good snipers can succeed of course, but that is true of any class and therefore if sniper is to be nerfed I would want to see how the average player has more impact just by switching to sniper.

There is a reason sniper is a pick class in comp.

While you are right about him being an offclass pick in 6's he's really only used defensively anyways which would mean much more charging up shots. The average sniper player is a gibus f2p who bodyshots scouts and medics for 150 damage so I wanted to address that too rather than focusing on headshots exclusively.

[Kravkik]

Автор сообщения: 悪さはダメだとわかん

That's not yours.

Yes it is, you seriously didn't know that trading/gifting strange items gets rid of the kills? Man this just keeps getting worse for you, just admit you're new to the game already. Even if that were the case here's a rifle without the gift indication:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Kravkikismeh/inventory/#440_2_13270261675

Автор сообщения: 悪さはダメだとわかん

Good luck with that.

I won't need it considering I have hundreds of hours of experience playing the class.