A discussion about Stock Engineer's place in modern TF2

[sexgod69]

Many people have made discussions about Stock Pyro, which should be discussed in its entirety, but no one ever talks about Stock Engineer, which I will do now.

Since the beginning of TF2 updates, the classes have had many weapons and changes to allow them to counter other classes better. These have made some classes, namely Engineer, Pyro, and Spy, noticeably weaker when having stock weapons equipped, as they have had weapons made for them to counter the classes who have had weapons made to counter them.

Pyro is the most affected, as the stock flamethrower is almost completely obsoleted by the Degreaser

Engineer, the second most affected, as many of his stock items have superior counterparts made for them.

Spy is not heavily affected, though Spy-countering weapons have been made, and he has gotten unlocks to increase his surviveability.

Engineer's primary

The Shotgun, while viable with the Gunslinger, is mostly obsoleted by the Rescue Ranger. Without it, his Sentry Gun is very vulnerable when he is away from it as he cannot heal it, meaning it is very likely that a Soldier or Demoman will quickly take it down while he is away. The Rescue Ranger fixes this, allowing him to heal it very fast if he has a clear line of sight to his Sentry.

During uberpushes and using the stock Shotgun, it is almost guaranteed that his Sentry will be destroyed. The Rescue Ranger fixes this, again, because if the Engineer has adequate metal he is able to teleport the Sentry in his arms, giving his Sentry a good chance to survive the uberpush. The Engineer could try to manually do this, but he will undoubtedly perish along with his Sentry.

Engineer's secondary

The Pistol is almost completely obsoleted by the Engineer's unlocks, as its purpose is to harass enemies at long to medium range, or for a backup if his primary's clip is out, but fighting is not nearly as important as protecting and getting picks with your Sentry.

The Wrangler is 10 times more useful, allowing the Engineer to put up an extremely powerful shield on his Sentry, making his Sentry much harder to destroy when the shield is up. He can also use it to waste the other team's uber, as it takes much longer to destroy a Sentry Gun while the shield is up, oftentimes wasting entire ubers.

He can also use it to take down buff targets faster, as he can use it to manually ain his Sentry, giving it a faster firing rate. He can even Sentry jump, allowing him and his Sentry to get to high places.

Engineer's Melee

The Wrench is mostly fine, though the Southern Hospitality is almost always better than it, allowing for tracking of invisible Spies with the bleeding, as well as extra damage when fighting the other team. The only real downside is the extra damage taken from fire, which isn't that big of a deal as you shouldn't encounter many Pyros, and even less in direct combat with them. There is also no random crits, though you shouldn't rely on them anyway.

tl;dr: Stock Engineer is in many ways obsolete in modern TF2. Thoughts?

[L E N I N H A T]

I agree. I don't even main Engi and I am not a fan of most of his stock weps.

However, I do like his stock shotgun. His pistol I usually replace with Wrangler or the Short Circut to piss off enemy Demos or Sollies

Great post! <3

[McKnuckles]

I have to say the wrench is better for melee (if you are playing engie right and your sentry can get decent kills) due to the random crit chance for you likely getting maxed as far as it can go.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

well not entirely
yes shotgun is obselete mainly because all the sckrubs using the DR theres no point to kill a spy and he comes back 5 seconds later

pistol is actually good in certain times but works better for scout yeah it sorta is obselete short circuit is X10 better for team support wrangler X20 for defense/sentry longetivity as well as troll engy by putting it in hard to reach spots if you have the RR

wrench
no comment
almost all wrenches excluding the eureka effect currently really doesnt matter so long as it gets the job done

[L E N I N H A T]

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

well not entirely
yes shotgun is obselete mainly because all the sckrubs using the DR theres no point to kill a spy and he comes back 5 seconds later

pistol is actually good in certain times but works better for scout yeah it sorta is obselete short circuit is X10 better for team support wrangler X20 for defense/sentry longetivity as well as troll engy by putting it in hard to reach spots if you have the RR

wrench
no comment
almost all wrenches excluding the eureka effect currently really doesnt matter so long as it gets the job done

Pretty much what I said, however I do believe in the stock shotgun.

That bit about the wrench I do agree with. I don't care what wrench I use, it gets the job done and I'll use it.

[Local Gator Hugger]

Dude, no. Stock Wrench is much better than Southern Hospitlaity. That bleeding isn't worth sacrificing crits, not to mention the fire vulnerability (mostly for MVM, but there's awlays corner pyros....). Plus, going into melle combat with a Spy is a good way to get trickstabbed, opening up your Sentry Gun to sappers. Even if the Spy doesn't pull it off, now your Sentry is unportected.

[sexgod69]

Originally posted by ☆ʇǝʞuɐɹq☆:

Shi t that's too much

There is a tl;dr down at the bottom for those who don't want to read as much.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by FCU OxyMoronical:

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

well not entirely
yes shotgun is obselete mainly because all the sckrubs using the DR theres no point to kill a spy and he comes back 5 seconds later

pistol is actually good in certain times but works better for scout yeah it sorta is obselete short circuit is X10 better for team support wrangler X20 for defense/sentry longetivity as well as troll engy by putting it in hard to reach spots if you have the RR

wrench
no comment
almost all wrenches excluding the eureka effect currently really doesnt matter so long as it gets the job done

Pretty much what I said, however I do believe in the stock shotgun.

That bit about the wrench I do agree with. I don't care what wrench I use, it gets the job done and I'll use it.

well on normal spies yeah its awesome
but DR spies sorta ruin it same with the widow maker since you dont get metal back on friegn deaths

[McKnuckles]

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

well not entirely
yes shotgun is obselete mainly because all the sckrubs using the DR theres no point to kill a spy and he comes back 5 seconds later

pistol is actually good in certain times but works better for scout yeah it sorta is obselete short circuit is X10 better for team support wrangler X20 for defense/sentry longetivity as well as troll engy by putting it in hard to reach spots if you have the RR

wrench
no comment
almost all wrenches excluding the eureka effect currently really doesnt matter so long as it gets the job done

I have to say the pistol is only really useful if you are using say the rescue ranger and need something that can deal out damage quicker on spies or what not that are right near you (mainly spies).

Wrench wise are there any bad wrenches for the engie aside for the eureka effect?

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by The Feral Hydra:

Dude, no. Stock Wrench is much better than Southern Hospitlaity. That bleeding isn't worth sacrificing crits, not to mention the fire vulnerability (mostly for MVM, but there's awlays corner pyros....). Plus, going into melle combat with a Spy is a good way to get trickstabbed, opening up your Sentry Gun to sappers. Even if the Spy doesn't pull it off, now your Sentry is unportected.

in mvm jag=best for the increased melee speed upgrades
also the point is to deal with the damn DR spies who die and come back 5 seconds later
let a fellow engy pyro teammate or your wrangled sentry take care of him

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by McKnuckles:

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

well not entirely
yes shotgun is obselete mainly because all the sckrubs using the DR theres no point to kill a spy and he comes back 5 seconds later

pistol is actually good in certain times but works better for scout yeah it sorta is obselete short circuit is X10 better for team support wrangler X20 for defense/sentry longetivity as well as troll engy by putting it in hard to reach spots if you have the RR

wrench
no comment
almost all wrenches excluding the eureka effect currently really doesnt matter so long as it gets the job done

I have to say the pistol is only really useful if you are using say the rescue ranger and need something that can deal out damage quicker on spies or what not that are right near you (mainly spies).

Wrench wise are there any bad wrenches for the engie aside for the eureka effect?

no
even the gunslinger has its moments

[McKnuckles]

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

Originally posted by The Feral Hydra:

Dude, no. Stock Wrench is much better than Southern Hospitlaity. That bleeding isn't worth sacrificing crits, not to mention the fire vulnerability (mostly for MVM, but there's awlays corner pyros....). Plus, going into melle combat with a Spy is a good way to get trickstabbed, opening up your Sentry Gun to sappers. Even if the Spy doesn't pull it off, now your Sentry is unportected.

in mvm jag=best for the increased melee speed upgrades
also the point is to deal with the damn DR spies who die and come back 5 seconds later
let a fellow engy pyro teammate or your wrangled sentry take care of him

If you have the wrangler you can also use the sentry itself to spycheck enemies with the rockets, or bullets.

[sexgod69]

Originally posted by The Feral Hydra:

Dude, no. Stock Wrench is much better than Southern Hospitlaity. That bleeding isn't worth sacrificing crits, not to mention the fire vulnerability (mostly for MVM, but there's awlays corner pyros....). Plus, going into melle combat with a Spy is a good way to get trickstabbed, opening up your Sentry Gun to sappers. Even if the Spy doesn't pull it off, now your Sentry is unportected.

Okay, this post was mostly towards the competitive community of TF2, so you are right about the crits. If you are careful about which way you are facing towards a Spy, the bleeding is great for you and you won't get matadored. You just need to be prepared for a matador attempt, if you are going against Spies.

I'm not talking about MvM, in a normal pub situation, if a Pyro catches you around a corner you're probably going to be dead anyway.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by McKnuckles:

Originally posted by newturtlebread3 senpai:

in mvm jag=best for the increased melee speed upgrades
also the point is to deal with the damn DR spies who die and come back 5 seconds later
let a fellow engy pyro teammate or your wrangled sentry take care of him

If you have the wrangler you can also use the sentry itself to spycheck enemies with the rockets, or bullets.

well yeah but its more psychological than utiility
if a spy sees he's bleeding
he'll either decloak
or
not try to to attack as frequently

[McKnuckles]

Originally posted by Burnt Sienna =LGBT=:

Originally posted by The Feral Hydra:

Dude, no. Stock Wrench is much better than Southern Hospitlaity. That bleeding isn't worth sacrificing crits, not to mention the fire vulnerability (mostly for MVM, but there's awlays corner pyros....). Plus, going into melle combat with a Spy is a good way to get trickstabbed, opening up your Sentry Gun to sappers. Even if the Spy doesn't pull it off, now your Sentry is unportected.

Okay, this post was mostly towards the competitive community of TF2, so you are right about the crits. If you are careful about which way you are facing towards a Spy, the bleeding is great for you and you won't get matadored. You just need to be prepared for a matador attempt, if you are going against Spies.

I'm not talking about MvM, in a normal pub situation, if a Pyro catches you around a corner you're probably going to be dead anyway.

Though I have to agree on the bleeding affect really helping agains spies though (DR or other wise, though with dr you can get them to waste their cloak quicker).

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by Burnt Sienna =LGBT=:

Originally posted by The Feral Hydra:

Dude, no. Stock Wrench is much better than Southern Hospitlaity. That bleeding isn't worth sacrificing crits, not to mention the fire vulnerability (mostly for MVM, but there's awlays corner pyros....). Plus, going into melle combat with a Spy is a good way to get trickstabbed, opening up your Sentry Gun to sappers. Even if the Spy doesn't pull it off, now your Sentry is unportected.

Okay, this post was mostly towards the competitive community of TF2, so you are right about the crits. If you are careful about which way you are facing towards a Spy, the bleeding is great for you and you won't get matadored. You just need to be prepared for a matador attempt, if you are going against Spies.

I'm not talking about MvM, in a normal pub situation, if a Pyro catches you around a corner you're probably going to be dead anyway.

well theres flares and the ocassional ass pyro who stands under/around the corner and uses his small flamethrower range to slowly kill your sentry