Too Many Snipers/Spies on Your Team. Are There Any Solutions?

[Johnny Wu-Tang]

I would love to see some ideas for encouraging a well-balanced team loadout in PUGs. This means encouraging players to choose classes their team needs, and/or discouraging classes that are overloaded. The focus of this ire is the 3 sniper and/or 3 spy loadout.

I love the sniper and spy classes in TF2. I WANT a sniper and a spy on my team. I prefer highlander over 6's play. However, a team shouldn't have 3 of each. Just like in baseball: shortstops are great, but I don't want 4 shortstops and no one on first, second or third.

What are your ideas for encouraging balanced teams?

In classical TF2 fashion, I think we should focus on making a balanced team more desirable, less punative.

+ please don't suggest lobbies. yes, they are an option, but that is missing the point.

[ptwhisper]

Forced class limits; some servers prohibit you from going a certain class if there are 2 or more people playing that class already.

[Clefairy]

I sorta think class limits by default, like in Valve servers, may help placate the problem. At the very least, maybe just class limits for Snipers and Spies specifically. I know sometimes it sucks when you want to play a certain class specifically and you're stopped by a limit, but at the same time if you would exceed that limit then you'd probably be hurting your team playing that class..

[Fahrenheit]

Originally posted by potato.bear™:

Forced class limits; some servers prohibit you from going a certain class if there are 2 or more people playing that class already.

I hate servers like these. There is always 2 gibusvision playing the class I want to play or need to change to counter enemy team. I suggest you just deal with it and work with what you got and try to scramble the teams.

[100% Recycled Awesome]

IMO, it's the noobs who don't understand the notion of a proper class mix. Class limits run into the problem of denying a good player from playing that class and filling it with scrubs who don't know what they're doing resulting in an even bigger drag on their team. While 3 sniper is bad, 2 terribad snipers and the good player denied from playing sniper is worse.

I've suggested this before, namely that sniper and spy be grayed out as class options for new players until they've put a subsantial number of hours into other classes. Temporarily blocked as options until you learn to play the game. Tutorials are fine and dandy, but my experience is that most people just rush through them learning nothing but the basics. Teaching someone how to play sniper/spy doesn't teach them that having 3 or more is bad.

That picture may actually top my worst class mix experience.

[Fahrenheit]

Originally posted by 100% Recycled Awesome:

IMO, it's the noobs who don't understand the notion of a proper class mix. Class limits run into the problem of denying a good player from playing that class and filling it with scrubs who don't know what they're doing resulting in an even bigger drag on their team. While 3 sniper is bad, 2 terribad snipers and the good player denied from playing sniper is worse.

I've suggested this before, namely that sniper and spy be grayed out as class options for new players until they've put a subsantial number of hours into other classes. Temporarily blocked as options until you learn to play the game. Tutorials are fine and dandy, but my experience is that most people just rush through them learning nothing but the basics. Teaching someone how to play sniper/spy doesn't teach them that having 3 or more is bad.

That picture may actually top my worst class mix experience.

This.

[ZETAGUNDAM]

Block the snipers view with the flamethrower, alert enemy team of where enemy spies are.

Everyone switches classes instantly whenever I do that and it opens up room for actually good players to play sniper/spy

[Johnny Wu-Tang]

some good suggestions so far. I have a hunch Recycled Awesome might be correct that the newer players are the ones flooding the slots. some additional:

Respawn Cam Reminder:

During the respawn time, suggest a change if needed. A) if there is an empty class slot (ie "Did you know your team has 0 Medics?" or "Your team already has 2 other spies. Your team could really use another Soldier") B) Perhaps just show the current team loadout at the bottom, similar to the start of arena, but laid out out under their class slots to show the imbalance.

Class limit Server filter:

I know some servers have class limits. Would love to use this filter when searching for matches, though most servers don't because Valve won't include them in quickplay searches. Valve, please allow limit servers to be included into quickplay (or at least certain presets).

Team Balancing Rewards:

increase the chance of hat drops by X% for players that switch from a "full" class (x3) to an empty class. Let players know this will increase a chance for rewards. Obviously monitor to prevent exploitation, or this creates a new problem (ie people endlessly switching classes to increase drop chances)

Autobalance Priority:

Give autobalance priority to the last person who switched to the 3rd sniper/spy.

[100% Recycled Awesome]

Originally posted by Applejack:

but at the same time if you would exceed that limit then you'd probably be hurting your team playing that class..

But if your team reallllllllllly needs a proper sniper or spy, a class limit prevents a competent player from doing that. I agree that most of the time having a 3rd sniper or spy is hurting a team, but it's not that uncommon these days to have total terribad players fill those first two slots and if there was a class limit, the competent player needed to do the job that the terribads can't, would get denied from playing that class and thus a big gap opens up on a team.

This happens quite a bit with pyro. Lots of noob pyros who don't know how to airblast or spy check. Class limiting pyro to 2 would prevent a team from getting a good pyro who can stop ubers and spy check. That's a big deficiency in a team. I know you said only class lock sniper/spy but it's just an example of how class limits can really screw a team over if the players in the allowed slots cannot do the job.

[Clefairy]

Originally posted by 100% Recycled Awesome:

Originally posted by Applejack:

but at the same time if you would exceed that limit then you'd probably be hurting your team playing that class..

But if your team reallllllllllly needs a proper sniper or spy, a class limit prevents a competent player from doing that. I agree that most of the time having a 3rd sniper or spy is hurting a team, but it's not that uncommon these days to have total terribad players fill those first two slots and if there was a class limit, the competent player needed to do the job that the terribads can't, would get denied from playing that class and thus a big gap opens up on a team.

This happens quite a bit with pyro. Lots of noob pyros who don't know how to airblast or spy check. Class limiting pyro to 2 would prevent a team from getting a good pyro who can stop ubers and spy check. That's a big deficiency in a team. I know you said only class lock sniper/spy but it's just an example of how class limits can really screw a team over if the players in the allowed slots cannot do the job.

Yeah, I'm completely aware of that, and that's why I started my post with "I sorta think." I'm always hesitant to suggest it and it's certainly not a perfect solution, so really you have different issues either way. I can't think of anything practical that would eliminate both problems.

[Z'Gok]

Originally posted by Pyrotar:

Originally posted by potato.bear™:

Forced class limits; some servers prohibit you from going a certain class if there are 2 or more people playing that class already.

I hate servers like these. There is always 2 gibusvision playing the class I want to play or need to change to counter enemy team. I suggest you just deal with it and work with what you got and try to scramble the teams.

Scumbag pros, "Deal with it and Scramble teams" "Never Scramble teams"

[Randomystick]

Originally posted by Tomoe:

No class limits, for the sake of saxton hale, no!

I'm for things like this:

Originally posted by 100% Recycled Awesome:

I've suggested this before, namely that sniper and spy be grayed out as class options for new players until they've put a subsantial number of hours into other classes. Temporarily blocked as options until you learn to play the game. Tutorials are fine and dandy, but my experience is that most people just rush through them learning nothing but the basics. Teaching someone how to play sniper/spy doesn't teach them that having 3 or more is bad.

Originally posted by Johnny Wu-Tang <eVa>:

Respawn Cam Reminder:

During the respawn time, suggest a change if needed. A) if there is an empty class slot (ie "Did you know your team has 0 Medics?" or "Your team already has 2 other spies. Your team could really use another Soldier") B) Perhaps just show the current team loadout at the bottom, similar to the start of arena, but laid out out under their class slots to show the imbalance.

In addition to those, maybe there should be a longer respawn time for people who choose sniper or spy (increase by ~6 seconds per extra player above 2)

It may not work out though, so I have a suggestion that when players are underperforming in their class and there are too many people playing said class, they are given a notice encouraging them to switch class, showing the Respawn Cam Reminder at the same time to give them a hint as to which class to switch to. If they continue to underperform, the server will force them to change to their least played class by time / switch to the class the team has the least of (ie medic)

[reflexx (ya-allah)]

i think there should be a max class for each team maybe like a limit of 4

[Starkman Jones]

Krundike once said this solution and i agree with him:

RULE OF SUPPORT CLASSES.

2 Snipers per team
2 Spies per team
Total amount of snipers and spies cannot be greater then 3

[Tz]

Originally posted by Johnny Wu-Tang <eVa>:

some good suggestions so far. I have a hunch Recycled Awesome might be correct that the newer players are the ones flooding the slots. some additional:

Respawn Cam Reminder:

During the respawn time, suggest a change if needed. A) if there is an empty class slot (ie "Did you know your team has 0 Medics?" or "Your team already has 2 other spies. Your team could really use another Soldier") B) Perhaps just show the current team loadout at the bottom, similar to the start of arena, but laid out out under their class slots to show the imbalance.

Class limit Server filter:

I know some servers have class limits. Would love to use this filter when searching for matches, though most servers don't because Valve won't include them in quickplay searches. Valve, please allow limit servers to be included into quickplay (or at least certain presets).

Team Balancing Rewards:

increase the chance of hat drops by X% for players that switch from a "full" class (x3) to an empty class. Let players know this will increase a chance for rewards. Obviously monitor to prevent exploitation, or this creates a new problem (ie people endlessly switching classes to increase drop chances)

Autobalance Priority:

Give autobalance priority to the last person who switched to the 3rd sniper/spy.

annoying, fine not gonna end well, GENIUS

I'm sending valve an email right now and asking them to autobalance the third sniper/spy.

[Tz]

also, class limits on valve servers is idiotic. It's pubs, you really gotta deal with it or make some kicks. Restricting freedom is going the wrong direction. Plus, five snipers and a spy checker on sawmill spawn camping is dope.