Buff Bonk, Sandman, and Baby Face Blaster

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Bonk: Had a completely unnecessary nerf that no-one other than a bunch of butthurt comp players were advocating for (Comp players seem to get butthurt about a lot of things, let’s be honest). Bonk pre-nerf already traded a whole slot which could be used instead for support, utility, or damage; and even then all it would take most times to get killed anyway is some other scout on the enemy team chasing you the entire way until it ended, and then they would not only have the drop on you (damage-first advantage); if they didn’t also have bonk, they would have a whole other slot to use in combat against you, placing you at a noticeable disadvantage for simply utilising a tool that makes scout better at what he already did: getting behind enemy lines. It could honestly just be reverted to its old self and it would not be troublesome to use anymore.

Sandman: completely useless nowadays, and any player who can remotely find any use out of this thing I commend. In my opinion it wasn’t even that OP before nerf, but that’s for another discussion that has already been discussed to death already. The ‘slow’ effect wouldn’t be so bad if it actually worked in the first place, and had a noticeable impact on most classes’ speed. Most classes get the slightest speed debuff that, at most (which is achieved at moon shot distance), reaches slightly slower than the speed of the heavy. That is pathetic, Valve. I am disgusted to see what you have done to this once-beautiful and rewarding weapon. Top all of this off with a -15 hp debuff and not even b3nny could find a use out of this sad display of a weapon anymore.

Baby Face Blaster: another sad display, but nowhere near as bad of a case as either bonk or sandman. Becomes a pain to use on the vast majority of maps. Unless you are on a wide-open map with a lot of flank routes, you’ll find no use with this weapon whatsoever, especially when there are SENTRIES or PYROS about. Essentially, it makes two of scouts main weaknesses, engies and pyros, even more of a nuisance. Hard nope for me. In the rare occasion you can find use out of using this thing, it does feel fantastic and you DO feel like you’re having a power trip. But on bad days, it feels like dragging a certain something over a mile of glass. Just pure pain and suffering. That’s the reason it needs a buff. More often than not, it is just NOT worth using anymore. Perhaps it could use a buff that makes the speed reduction on damage less punishing, or even just remove the speed reduction entirely with the complete inability to double jump instead. That sounds fair in my opinion. Trading vertical mobility for horizontal mobility.

[Vror]

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Aaand keep in mind that Valve, in their official nerf note for the sandman in 2017, said it was only 'unfun to fight against.'

That's mostly the definition of fairness, yes

Sandman was unfair

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Yet again, this is basing the nerf of a weapon on how annoying or unfun it is to fight against. It's unfun to fight against sniper, pyro, heavy with natascha, engineer as Scout. Does that mean they should all be nerfed to be more fun from my perspective as a Scout main? It's ridiculous logic on Valve's part, and was never mentioned once by Valve as being 'overpowered,' only 'unfun to fight against.'

Natascha needs a rework
Pyro needs an overhaul
Sniper needs nerfs
Engi needs unlock nerfs and building (other than the sentry) buffs

Ironically enough everything you mentioned is unfun to fight with ANY class, not only scout

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: Vror

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Aaand keep in mind that Valve, in their official nerf note for the sandman in 2017, said it was only 'unfun to fight against.'

That's mostly the definition of fairness, yes

Sandman was unfair

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Yet again, this is basing the nerf of a weapon on how annoying or unfun it is to fight against. It's unfun to fight against sniper, pyro, heavy with natascha, engineer as Scout. Does that mean they should all be nerfed to be more fun from my perspective as a Scout main? It's ridiculous logic on Valve's part, and was never mentioned once by Valve as being 'overpowered,' only 'unfun to fight against.'

Natascha needs a rework
Pyro needs an overhaul
Sniper needs nerfs
Engi needs unlock nerfs and building (other than the sentry) buffs

Ironically enough everything you mentioned is unfun to fight with ANY class, not only scout

I don't think you seem to understand. How annoying a weapon is against enemy players does not mean 'fairness.' Fairness describes how 'fair' the weapon is to use in terms of balance, not in terms of being 'unfun to fight against.' ANY weapon can be 'unfun to fight against' in TF2. It's all a matter of opinion. I used to think the Natascha was OP as a Scout main; and while I still agree the damage resistance on low-health spin up is still busted for such a weapon, everything else about the Natascha made Heavy a lot weaker damage-wise. This trade off of damage for targeting faster classes is fair balance-wise, as it allows Heavy to have more defence against classes that could otherwise easily catch up to him and kill him, whilst making him weaker against other damage-dealing classes like soldier or demo. While it is incredibly annoying and unfun to play against as a Scout, it is by no means overpowered when you think about it.

Same applies with the sandman.

Just curious, what overhaul would pyro need in your opinion?

Sniper doesn't need nerfs. His balancing relies on requiring tremendous skill to pull off high feats. While I do agree the jarate with the 'certain' melee weapon that shall not be named here is overpowered by how little effort it requires to use, and how it completely invalidates Sniper's main weakness being close-range; Sniper is still, nonetheless, weak in general in close range. Even with the jarate combo, Sniper still has to get within melee distance, which many classes faster than the Sniper can stay at distance from as long as they play it smart.

And yes, I agree Engineer has a few 'questionable' weapons that should also receive nerfs, such as the wrangler. Everything else, in my opinion, is relatively balanced for Engineer. The mini-sentry, while it has always been a MAJOR pain in the ass for me, it has never been 'overpowered' as it traded off the strong area denial tool known as the level 3 sentry off to become a smaller, weaker version in exchange for making the engineer able to tank more damage and become much more reliant on his own personal ability, and not just that of his sentry's ability.

[76561198161596995]

pyro having to aim his flamethrower would honestly be a buff for spy why aren't they doing it

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: Misty Blu-2

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Pyro main spotted.

Lol, I play Scout like you.

Pyro is very easy to kill when you get the drop on him but annoying to fight when the flames block your view and don’t require any aim to touch you.

I just want a total rework that makes Pyro a more engaging and skill-based opponent than the mess he is right now.

Nice save. I thought you were saying Pyro did not need a nerf, and then you come out saying that he needs to be made more skill-based rather than the brainless mess he is right now. That is most-certainly a nerf, but a nerf I agree with. Nerf because the moment you force skill to Pyro, 90% of its players will all collectively suck again.

[Cat_Soldier]

all pyros smell like motor oil, and i hate that smell. they should nerf him sro he does 1 damage, has -174 hp, and doesnt smell

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: pat 2

pyro having to aim his flamethrower would honestly be a buff for spy why aren't they doing it

They have that sort of a concept in TF2 Classic where you have to actually 'aim' your flamethrower over someone rather than just firing in the enemy's general direction and guaranteeing some random stray flame particle will hit you 5 metres away. That would actually be feasible and balanced. Pyro can currently: deflect projectiles, stun lock players with no skill required other than spamming a weapon down a corridor 24/7, thwart uber pushes, thwart kritz pushes, utilise ALL weapon slots for guaranteed crits which ANNIHILATE any class, hard counter all spies and demoknights, gets a melee weapon that can allow them to straight up run the same speed as the Scout almost, kill people by holding M1 with no aim required, apply afterburn with the slightest flame particle on your hitbox, fly with a jetpack, detonator jump, break sappers FASTER than the engineer can, kill entire teams with one uber push and a phlog, AND he can all do a large portion of this with low to moderate skill levels. Meanwhile Pyro mains cried everytime they got the slightest balancing nerf, but celebrated when classes like the Scout got balanced for being 'unfun to fight against.' And yes, I did know Pyro mains celebrating over it, because sandman stun stopping them W+M1ing you for one millisecond (which they also had the opportunity to deflect) was unbalanced and unfair.

In other words, there's a reason that everytime you are owning someone as either Spy, Soldier, Demo or Scout, they will swap to Pyro. All they have to do is sit on their ass in their base and wait for you to turn a corner to completely W+M1 you, leaving you with little chance to fight back (as Scout or Spy especially). Even if you kill them, they will still get you via afterburn in the end anyway if you have no items or medkits nearby to help you with it. And then the smug dumbasses even have the audacity to taunt afterward. No wonder people hate pyro so much, including myself.

[Scally]

Автор сообщения: jungus

I almost exclusively use the BFB on Scout, and I can say that I've never had an issue with it. I can definitely see the argument to reduce the amount of boost lost on hit, but if no change ever happened it wouldn't keep me up at night.

If there was an ordered list of weapons, and the higher up on that list was the more said weapons needed to be reworked/buffed, then I think the BFB would sit towards the bottom. It's fine where it is in its current state.

Don't you think though it's a bit harsh penalizing air jumps on the BFB? I mean, that's what the Scout does. I think it would be balanced without this penalty?

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: psilocybe

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

In other words, there's a reason that everytime you are owning someone as either Spy, Soldier, Demo or Scout, they will swap to Pyro. All they have to do is sit on their ass in their base and wait for you to turn a corner to completely W+M1 you, leaving you with little chance to fight back (as Scout or Spy especially). Even if you kill them, they will still get you via afterburn in the end anyway if you have no items or medkits nearby to help you with it. And then the smug dumbasses even have the audacity to taunt afterward. No wonder people hate pyro so much, including myself.

Stop sucking as scout problem solved

Well when you’re the class that is designed to constantly go past corners ahead of your team, it’s not exactly hard for a pyro to kill you given they will have the distance on you the second you round a corner.

[deksis]

Baby face's blaster dont need buff its skillful weapon

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: psilocybe

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Well when you’re the class that is designed to constantly go past corners ahead of your team, it’s not exactly hard for a pyro to kill you given they will have the distance on you the second you round a corner.

scout is designed for everything, and a good scout can deal with pyros without issues

Said like a player who has never played scout in their life. Half a second of exposure to a Pyro’s flames is enough to make you really weak by the time the afterburn is over. Any more than a second and you’ll die if you don’t find a health kit or a nearby water source. You spend about 2 seconds of straight flames, you die very quickly after. I have mained Scout since 2012 and Pyros are still a persistent nuisance that kill you without any effort. Whereas you’ll be struggling to shoot through their flames at them, requiring aim and precision, they’ll just brainlessly fling their mouse in your direction and quite often get kills out of it. And, again, distance ain’t a factor when the W+M1 is hiding around a corner or just so happens to be exiting the place you’re trying to get into.

PS: Scout is designed for ‘everything?’ Are you joking? Have you ever heard of the sentry gun before?

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: psilocybe

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Said like a player who has never played scout in their life. Half a second of exposure to a Pyro’s flames is enough to make you really weak by the time the afterburn is over. Any more than a second and you’ll die if you don’t find a health kit or a nearby water source. You spend about 2 seconds of straight flames, you die very quickly after. I have mained Scout since 2012 and Pyro is still a persistent nuisance that kill you without any effort. Whereas you’ll be struggling to shoot through their flames at them, requiring aim and precision, they’ll just brainlessly fling their mouse in your direction and quite often get kills out of it. And, again, distance ain’t a factor when the W+M1 is hiding around a corner or just so happens to be exiting the place you’re trying to get into.

PS: Scout is designed for ‘everything?’ Are you joking? Have you ever heard of the sentry gun before?

scout is my most played class since i reseted my stats
and by everything I mean scout can be used to attack and defend aswell

So in all your hours, and Scout being your main class you play, you never have trouble with Pyros? Ever? Maybe it's because I play 2Fort a lot, but I ALWAYS run into these ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when I'm trying to enter the enemy base (although not just limited to 2Fort). When I'm in an open map, fair enough; they're pretty easy to deal with (but not to deal effective damage to). When I'm in a closed off map, they're a perpetual nuisance that never goes away and it will leave you with a lifelong hatred which I'm surprised you have not developed, yourself, yet.

[KidCudi2211]

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

Автор сообщения: Vror

That's mostly the definition of fairness, yes

Sandman was unfair


Natascha needs a rework
Pyro needs an overhaul
Sniper needs nerfs
Engi needs unlock nerfs and building (other than the sentry) buffs

Ironically enough everything you mentioned is unfun to fight with ANY class, not only scout

I don't think you seem to understand. How annoying a weapon is against enemy players does not mean 'fairness.' Fairness describes how 'fair' the weapon is to use in terms of balance, not in terms of being 'unfun to fight against.' ANY weapon can be 'unfun to fight against' in TF2. It's all a matter of opinion. I used to think the Natascha was OP as a Scout main; and while I still agree the damage resistance on low-health spin up is still busted for such a weapon, everything else about the Natascha made Heavy a lot weaker damage-wise. This trade off of damage for targeting faster classes is fair balance-wise, as it allows Heavy to have more defence against classes that could otherwise easily catch up to him and kill him, whilst making him weaker against other damage-dealing classes like soldier or demo. While it is incredibly annoying and unfun to play against as a Scout, it is by no means overpowered when you think about it.

Same applies with the sandman.

Just curious, what overhaul would pyro need in your opinion?

Sniper doesn't need nerfs. His balancing relies on requiring tremendous skill to pull off high feats. While I do agree the jarate with the 'certain' melee weapon that shall not be named here is overpowered by how little effort it requires to use, and how it completely invalidates Sniper's main weakness being close-range; Sniper is still, nonetheless, weak in general in close range. Even with the jarate combo, Sniper still has to get within melee distance, which many classes faster than the Sniper can stay at distance from as long as they play it smart.

And yes, I agree Engineer has a few 'questionable' weapons that should also receive nerfs, such as the wrangler. Everything else, in my opinion, is relatively balanced for Engineer. The mini-sentry, while it has always been a MAJOR pain in the ass for me, it has never been 'overpowered' as it traded off the strong area denial tool known as the level 3 sentry off to become a smaller, weaker version in exchange for making the engineer able to tank more damage and become much more reliant on his own personal ability, and not just that of his sentry's ability.

Why do you keep typing paragraphs for the simplest, smallest questions?

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: psilocybe

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

So in all your hours, and Scout being your main class you play, you never have trouble with Pyros? Ever? Maybe it's because I play 2Fort a lot, but I ALWAYS run into these ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when I'm trying to enter the enemy base (although not just limited to 2Fort). When I'm in an open map, fair enough; they're pretty easy to deal with (but not to deal effective damage to). When I'm in a closed off map, they're a perpetual nuisance that never goes away and it will leave you with a lifelong hatred which I'm surprised you have not developed, yourself, yet.

they can catch me sometimes but even in worst cases i manage to kill them, even if i die of afterburn
the only problem you should have with pyros are flares, if they hit you with 1 flare you have to retreat

but most pyros are dumb players, you can flank and kill them with 2 meatshots easily

Exactly. If they can catch you, they can kill you very easily. When you're at distance to a Pyro, you're completely safe in your mind. The moment a flame particle hits you, however, you are immediately in danger and have to retreat as soon as possible. It's like going from 0 to 100. One moment, you're relaxed, safe and unlikely to be dead and then 'OH GOD I WAS SET ON FIRE AGAIN, GUESS I'M JUST GONNA DIE AGAIN THEN.' Even if you kill them you'll still likely die afterwards anyway if you're exposed to them anywhere over a second of straight flames. And don't get me started on flares. One puff of fire and a flare kills you either instantly or near-instantly. And the scorch shot makes it EVEN HARDER to escape when you're being stunlocked as you're running backwards away from the pyro.

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Автор сообщения: jose.gonsalez2010

Автор сообщения: Man of Mines #SaveSandmanTF2

I don't think you seem to understand. How annoying a weapon is against enemy players does not mean 'fairness.' Fairness describes how 'fair' the weapon is to use in terms of balance, not in terms of being 'unfun to fight against.' ANY weapon can be 'unfun to fight against' in TF2. It's all a matter of opinion. I used to think the Natascha was OP as a Scout main; and while I still agree the damage resistance on low-health spin up is still busted for such a weapon, everything else about the Natascha made Heavy a lot weaker damage-wise. This trade off of damage for targeting faster classes is fair balance-wise, as it allows Heavy to have more defence against classes that could otherwise easily catch up to him and kill him, whilst making him weaker against other damage-dealing classes like soldier or demo. While it is incredibly annoying and unfun to play against as a Scout, it is by no means overpowered when you think about it.

Same applies with the sandman.

Just curious, what overhaul would pyro need in your opinion?

Sniper doesn't need nerfs. His balancing relies on requiring tremendous skill to pull off high feats. While I do agree the jarate with the 'certain' melee weapon that shall not be named here is overpowered by how little effort it requires to use, and how it completely invalidates Sniper's main weakness being close-range; Sniper is still, nonetheless, weak in general in close range. Even with the jarate combo, Sniper still has to get within melee distance, which many classes faster than the Sniper can stay at distance from as long as they play it smart.

And yes, I agree Engineer has a few 'questionable' weapons that should also receive nerfs, such as the wrangler. Everything else, in my opinion, is relatively balanced for Engineer. The mini-sentry, while it has always been a MAJOR pain in the ass for me, it has never been 'overpowered' as it traded off the strong area denial tool known as the level 3 sentry off to become a smaller, weaker version in exchange for making the engineer able to tank more damage and become much more reliant on his own personal ability, and not just that of his sentry's ability.

Why do you keep typing paragraphs for the simplest, smallest questions?

Simply expanded upon what was not mentioned in their argument. You can't just say things like 'Sniper needs nerfs,' or 'Pyro needs an overhaul' without providing context.

[KidCudi2211]

Yes but I think you are going a bit too far with the evidence and putting ALL the evidence, just put a bit at a time in separate messages.