Questioning Competitive Weapon Bans

[Evil Mastermind]

I looked into competitive for and what I saw was a ****s ton of banned weapons. On highlander it's meh, but I don't care about Highlander in this post.
Why the heck are so many weapons banned from competitive TF2?
Does anyone decide on this or is it just the crybaby community I saw on some forum posts regarding competitive TF2?
I see why ban those pair taunts, being able to look round the corner while not exposing yourself or making a sound is an unfair advantage to people who bought the taunt but why most of the weapons?
I'm looking for reasoning behind each weapon ban if anyone knows of that existing somewhere.
--------------------------Linked whitelist response-------------------------------
// New items added to the game are: NOT allowed
// Hats are: allowed
// Miscs are: allowed
// Pyrovision is: NOT allowed <--- Why the hell not?
// Noisemakers are: NOT allowed <--- Why the hell not?
// Restricted noisemakers are: NOT allowed <--- Why the hell not?
// Halloween/Full Moon items are: allowed
// Noise making miscs are: NOT allowed <--- Why the hell not?
// Explosion on death miscs are: NOT allowed <--- If the explosion damages enemies, I do get it. If I am however mistaking, why the hell not?
// Festive weapon reskins are: allowed
// Botkiller weapon reskins are: allowed

// Blocked weapons for Multiple classes
// - Secondary
// * B.A.S.E. Jumper <--- A soldier gives up his secondary for slow fall speed, what's supposed to be bad there?
// * Reserve Shooter <--- A lot of people diss this I don't see why. It just rewards airshots.

// Blocked weapons for Scout
// - Primary
// * Soda Popper <--- Why the hell not? It just adds a ton of mobility to the scout.
// - Secondary
// * Bonk! Atomic Punch <--- This is in the game to allow the scout to help with sentries and you lot take it away? Plus airblast disables this pretty easily.
// * Crit-a-Cola <--- Substitute long range weapon for a temporary buff... Why is this banned?
// * Flying Guillotine <--- Pretty useless weapon unless you're good at these volley weapons.
// * Mad Milk <--- This kills any teamplay for scout.
// - Melee
// * Atomizer <--- You can have the FoN which is basically this without taking 10 health away... which is better than this...
// * Sandman <--- This actually can be banned, nothing against it.
// * Wrap Assassin <--- This actually can be banned, nothing against it.

// Blocked weapons for Soldier
// - Primary
// * Air Strike <--- This actually can be banned, nothing against it.
// * Beggar's Bazooka <--- This actually can be banned, nothing against it.
// - Melee
// * Disciplinary Action <--- Giving a very short speed buff to someone who happens to be nearby. It's a normal teamplay weapon...

// Blocked weapons for Pyro
// - Primary
// * Phlogistinator <--- The old one was a little OP so yeah, this has a spot but right now it's completely fine.

// Blocked weapons for Demoman
// - Primary
// * Loch-n-Load <--- Really? The signature of this class is spam and the only thing you people ban is the only thing you can't spam with? Guess the geniuses who came up with this are l33t spamfesters. 'Demoman takes skill!'

// Blocked weapons for Heavy
// - Primary
// * Brass Beast <--- Terribly good but I see why it's banned.
// * Natascha <--- This is a team weapon punishing enemies who don't use cover, so why?
// - Secondary
// * Buffalo Steak Sandvich <--- This actually can be banned, nothing against it.
// * Dalokohs Bar <--- Why? It doesn't change all that much and replaces the only other means of ranged combat a heavy has.
// * Sandvich <--- This is a support item, I don't see why it's banned.
// - Melee
// * Eviction Notice <--- Don't see why this is banned. Fast close range attacks on the slowest class in the game... Real threat.
// * Fists of Steel <--- If I remember right this has bullet resistance, if I'm not mistaken I don't see why this is banned, if it's all ranged sources, then I do get this fully.
// * Gloves of Running Urgently <--- Fast moving with a mark for death. It's like the escape plan... You still have to use it early for it to actually get you out of the situation.

// Blocked weapons for Engineer
// - Primary
// * Pomson 6000 <--- This actually can be banned, nothing against it.
// * Rescue Ranger <--- I actually don't see why this is banned. It's a bloody great weapon which can simply be countered by a lot of damage. Direct hit or stickies (Which nobody bothered to ban) or a combination of any kind of AoE damage that makes the engineer retreat out of wrangler range.
// - Secondary
// * Short Circuit <--- I don't see why this is banned, you can no longer spam it.
// * Wrangler <--- I don't see why this is banned.
// - Melee
// * Gunslinger <--- Nobody likes mini sentries but I still say they're less of a threat than a level 3.

// Blocked weapons for Medic
// - Secondary
// * Quick-Fix <--- WHY?! If you use this you give up uber and the enemy can still take down an ubered heavy. Hell, a sniper can do it with ONE fully charged headshot. Sure it does a lot of healing but it pays for it in ubercharge usability. Also it allows the scout to actually help the medic by allowing for a speed boost.
// - Melee
// * Solemn Vow <--- This thing just allows you to see enemy health... Why...
// * Vita-Saw <--- Retaining ubercharge might be bad but why ban this? It's not exactly super OP... Allows the medic to be up front more without losing all the ubercharge on a death.

// Blocked weapons for Sniper
// - Primary
// * Sydney Sleeper <--- This weapon is supportive instead of a direct kill weapon which is a change for the better in a teamwork based game unlike the rest of FPSs where snipers are there to just camp and 1 hit kill.
// - Secondary
// * Cozy Camper <--- You give up any real close-mid defense for something that slowly heals you and steadies your aim. Not much of an OP accessory I'd say. It just allows the sniper to stay up front for longer.
// * Darwin's Danger Shield <--- This just gives him some extra HP and vulnerability towards soldier and demo which are both pretty much mandatory classes in 6s.
// * Jarate <--- Killed teamplay once again...

[Verb_๊]

I still laugh at the concept of competitive in TF2. You'd think after 8 years people would realize TF2 just isn't suited for competitive play.

[euler]

Mad milk is more broken than you think

soda popper is just antifun.

reserver shooter pyro is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, and im saying this as a pyro main.

[trash]

Publicado originalmente por Verb_๊:

I still laugh at the concept of competitive in TF2. You'd think after 8 years people would realize TF2 just isn't suited for competitive play.

it is when you strip out half the classes and weapons that make it uncompetitive and play on competitively designed maps

but then people complain because it's not 'real TF2'

[racknae]

Quick Fix, Crit-a-Cola and Sydney Sleeper are banned in 6s because they're completely broken in that context.

Discliplinary Action and most heavy weapons are banned because Heavy grinds the game to a halt.

The Vita-Saw forces the other medic to run Vita-Saw as well. Uber is incredibly important in comp, and the Vita-Saw completely negates a dropped uber, hence it's banned in every league.

Cozy Camper makes it impossible to make snipers flinch. Darwin's Danger Shield negates the Sniper's main counter almost completely. Good snipers are ridiculously hard to deal with if either of these weapons are allowed.

[78pac7]

Because 6s is for tryhards. It's not supposed to be fun. jk.

I'm pretty sure they also ban weapons considered Underpowered, as well as ones considered Overpowered. Kind of like in MvM, there's a meta in 6s. So they force you to follow it by banning every other weapon. That's my explanation.

[sexgod69]

Publicado originalmente por Shquidbarrel:

Because 6s is for tryhards. It's not supposed to be fun. jk.

I'm pretty sure they also ban weapons considered Underpowered, as well as ones considered Overpowered. Kind of like in MvM, there's a meta in 6s. So they force you to follow it by banning every other weapon. That's my explanation.

Overpowered isn't the only reason a weapon could be banned. Think about what the other reasons could be.

[Vlad the Impala]

Publicado originalmente por Shquidbarrel:

Because 6s is for tryhards. It's not supposed to be fun. jk.

I'm pretty sure they also ban weapons considered Underpowered, as well as ones considered Overpowered. Kind of like in MvM, there's a meta in 6s. So they force you to follow it by banning every other weapon. That's my explanation.

Ignoring the explanation of weapon bans directly above you.

[Holly the Jolly]

Publicado originalmente por Eobard Thawne:

soda popper is just antifun.

Says reverse flash lol
And sodapopper is tons of fun.
For me atleast.
Also it balanced an mge between a friend and I (he ran milk and sandman with stock, I ran popper stock and atomizer, he lost)

[Huge Jacked Man]

Publicado originalmente por Shquidbarrel:

Because 6s is for tryhards. It's not supposed to be fun. jk.

I'm pretty sure they also ban weapons considered Underpowered, as well as ones considered Overpowered. Kind of like in MvM, there's a meta in 6s. So they force you to follow it by banning every other weapon. That's my explanation.

[Gius]

Publicado originalmente por Lord_Holly:

Publicado originalmente por Gius:

I'll divide on different points:
Pyro: while you are right that a roamer and pyro can have an equal 1v1, every other class except medic is better in 1v1 than a roamer. Roamer is the worst fighter, but his role isn't to fight. HIs role is being a versatile player, that can help teamamtes during risky 1v1 and that can create opening with bombs. All this due to the crazy amount of mobility the gunboats have. I mean actual mobility, I know on most maps scout and demo are faster than roamer, but mobility is the ability to get anywhere on the map fast. Demo can't sticky jump often and scouts' double jumple can get only so far.
That being said, there is no reason (right now) for a team to wish a pyro over a scout or a soldier MOST OF THE TIME. When having a pyro is better, like when we need to deny an uber, we run it, it is simple.

Heavy: The problem is that 6s player don't want to deny bomber so easily. I have to explain better: GRU would make heavy viable full time, right? So bomber won't bomb any more and scouts won't flank any more, since heavy is the perfect defence after a lv3 sentry. The games slows down and becomes boring. And we don't want to play a boring game, don't we?
In the open a revved up heavy kills any other class before it can do anything. Any class can kill it while not revved up, but that's why you have scouts on the flank: to don't get flanked.
About the gamesense you are right. In fact low skill ceiling is not an argument to ban something imo

Medic:
Quickfix is weak in pubs because a lot of people can focus fire you and negate the mega regen. In 6s, only 5 people can focus fire you, but most of the time you won't be pushing against the whole team stacked togheter. So the uber becomes as good as the stock, in the typical 6s enviroment, unless sticky traps (that you can check), sniper or kritzkrieg comes into play. And most of the time they don't. Not to mention is build ALWAYS in 32 seconds, and that it has a better healing rate.
Right now (in 6s ofc) quickfix is a direct upgrade, and puts you at an advantage in most of the situations. And this is bad. Not to mention it HAS been playtested, and it resulted in a boring chokefest.

A single mini per se isn't a problem. The problem is that
1)they are spammable
2)they grant a perfect flank protection (slowing down the game)
3)they still knockback away bombers and deny scouts as well.
Also, tele to the frontline isn't an option, since points are capped every 2 minutes, forward spawn is a thing, and having a guy constantly runnning around setting them up isn't an option, since you would have 1 less player on the frontline. Not to mention the classes run are the fastest in the game, for a reason. The only reason to make tele to frontline viable is by slowing down the pace of the game --> what we don't want.
Not gonna lie, I'd love to see a tele backcap :P, would be pretty awesome. But I think a decent team would notice it, and checking for teles would became the standard if engi would be part of the meta.

But again, 6s was born as a fast paced, DM heavy gamemode. If you want to play a more slow paced gamemode, don't play 6s. HL is a thing

I see and respect everything you are saying, and honestly it makes a lot of sense and puts 6s into perspective for me.
I may try it out at some point, but fit right now I prefer hl due to the larger teams and ability to mix up strategies and try something new.
You should definitely go for the engy backcap though : D

Glad that wall of text did something.

[Gius]

Publicado originalmente por Verb_๊:

I still laugh at the concept of competitive in TF2. You'd think after 8 years people would realize TF2 just isn't suited for competitive play.

Original TF mod born from quake, highly competitive game
TFC had an huge competitive scene.
All the veterans from the older games wanted to try out TF2 competitive too. And at first, with stock loadout only, class limits were the only requirement. Then BS unlocks happened (sandman, natasha...), and that lead to item bans.
So, I'd say it is suited for competitive play, and by a bog margin

[Dayal]

Because TF2 isn't build for competitive. All what 6s is doing is to atleast garantue a competitive feeling in their games. Does 6s represent TF2? No, not by a mile. Does 6s show the potential of TF2 as a competitive game? Yes, it certainly does.

Yes, it's a shame that more than half of the content has to be discouraged/banned in order to achieve that, but that's a problem of TF2 and not of the 6s community. Valve should just focus o the content that already makes TF2 competitive rather than trying to do the impossible and change TF2 as a whole to bd competitive.

[xenon]

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

I looked into competitive for and what I saw was a ****s ton of banned weapons. On highlander it's meh, but I don't care about Highlander in this post.
Why the heck are so many weapons banned from competitive TF2?

because crutches, ezmode and annoying are bad

[Mashpit]

first off, rofl at all the armchair strategists that think an open whitelist would actually lead to a more diverse playstyle instead of cheesing the most broken unlocks

anyways, it's worth noting that 6's bans and class limits are not based around making everything viable everywhere (because the classes are not equally powerful to begin with) but around making the game fast, skill-based and fun for both spectators and players

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

cosmetic bans

most of these don't really matter, and not all leagues ban cosmetics

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * B.A.S.E. Jumper <--- A soldier gives up his secondary for slow fall speed, what's supposed to be bad there?

it's one of those bans that ban something that nobody uses anyways - it'll probably be unbanned if enough people asked for it but since nobody cares it stays banned

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Reserve Shooter <--- A lot of people diss this I don't see why. It just rewards airshots.

yeah let's make soldier and pyro better at roamer denial than scout, and punish players for pressing spacebar
no

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Soda Popper <--- Why the hell not? It just adds a ton of mobility to the scout.

higher burst damage than scattergun
higher sustain damage than scattergun past 4th shot
m2 gimmick that lets you screw over projectile classes even more than before

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Bonk! Atomic Punch <--- This is in the game to allow the scout to help with sentries and you lot take it away? Plus airblast disables this pretty easily.

area control is huge in 6's, letting the most powerful flank class get behind enemy lines reliably is a major no-no

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Crit-a-Cola <--- Substitute long range weapon for a temporary buff... Why is this banned?

first off, the fact that you think the pistol is a long range weapon just goes to show how little you know about the game rofl
basically, CaC lets you two-shot sollies while staying out of splash range, and on top it makes the fastest class in the game even faster

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Flying Guillotine <--- Pretty useless weapon unless you're good at these volley weapons.

yeah let's give the class whose only real weakness is lack of spam weapons a spam weapon
besides, it deals 50 instant damage + 30 bleed at any range, which lets scout basically end fights before they begin, while the pistol is a backup/last resort kind of weapon

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Mad Milk <--- This kills any teamplay for scout.

you have no idea how powerful a 60% vampire effect is, if you splash the enemy combo your team gets a free push out of it
on top of that it's available as soon as you have to respawn, it's not a "reward" mechanic

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Atomizer <--- You can have the FoN which is basically this without taking 10 health away... which is better than this...

I shouldn't have to explain this one rofl
if you don't understand why a third jump that can be used mid-combat is ridiculously powerful especially when half of your enemies are projectile classes, stop playing the game

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Disciplinary Action <--- Giving a very short speed buff to someone who happens to be nearby. It's a normal teamplay weapon...

this is mostly to prevent teams from running Heavy to mid with the whip, which slows down the game considerably and makes midfights a game of attrition based around slowly chipping down the enemy Heavy

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Loch-n-Load <--- Really? The signature of this class is spam and the only thing you people ban is the only thing you can't spam with? Guess the geniuses who came up with this are l33t spamfesters. 'Demoman takes skill!'

rofl you think loch takes more aim

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Natascha <--- This is a team weapon punishing enemies who don't use cover, so why?

partly because of the damage resistance making overhealed Heavies even more annoying to take down and partly because nobody likes slowdown

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Dalokohs Bar <--- Why? It doesn't change all that much and replaces the only other means of ranged combat a heavy has.

dunno tbh, if the extra health affected overheal then it would be understandable
probably because nobody uses it anyways

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Sandvich <--- This is a support item, I don't see why it's banned.

300 hp is a lot in 6's, if a team has to use up their ammo supply shooting down a Heavy twice then they won't have damage output left over to deal with the rest of the enemies

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Eviction Notice <--- Don't see why this is banned. Fast close range attacks on the slowest class in the game... Real threat.

see my comment for the base jumper

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Fists of Steel <--- If I remember right this has bullet resistance, if I'm not mistaken I don't see why this is banned, if it's all ranged sources, then I do get this fully.

again, Heavy's sheer health pool makes him an incredibly difficult enemy to take down with just 6 players
with FoS and full overheal, your team can't win against an enemy playing defensively due to lack of damage output

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Gloves of Running Urgently <--- Fast moving with a mark for death. It's like the escape plan... You still have to use it early for it to actually get you out of the situation.

see note for disciplinary action

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Rescue Ranger <--- I actually don't see why this is banned. It's a bloody great weapon which can simply be countered by a lot of damage. Direct hit or stickies (Which nobody bothered to ban) or a combination of any kind of AoE damage that makes the engineer retreat out of wrangler range.

Engi in 6's is a sort of a throwaway class that lets your team have a 217 hp damage sponge and also a player who can immediately switch back to Scout once the sentry goes down
rescue ranger can significantly lengthen the survivability of the sentry by letting the Engi heal it from inside spawn and still be able to switch to a DM class

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Short Circuit <--- I don't see why this is banned, you can no longer spam it.

it's still extremely powerful when half the enemy team uses projectiles, and it neutralizes stickytraps instantly

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Wrangler <--- I don't see why this is banned.

wrangled sentries have 648 effective hp
read what I said about Heavies

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Gunslinger <--- Nobody likes mini sentries but I still say they're less of a threat than a level 3.

level 3's can't be built in 2 seconds and they don't give you 225 overheal health
it slows down the game considerably by denying flank plays entirely with its chip damage and knockback

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Quick-Fix <--- WHY?! If you use this you give up uber and the enemy can still take down an ubered heavy. Hell, a sniper can do it with ONE fully charged headshot. Sure it does a lot of healing but it pays for it in ubercharge usability. Also it allows the scout to actually help the medic by allowing for a speed boost.

the "uber" charges ridiculously fast and 6's don't have enough players to overwhelm the healing rate
we tried using it before, and everyone just ran QF + GRU Heavy
if you like watching fat people shoot at each other to no effect for 30 minutes, then go make your own 6's

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Solemn Vow <--- This thing just allows you to see enemy health... Why...

it lessens the communication side of 6's in favor of letting the med just call out who to kill
it lowers the skill requirement of the game, basically

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Vita-Saw <--- Retaining ubercharge might be bad but why ban this? It's not exactly super OP... Allows the medic to be up front more without losing all the ubercharge on a death.

it lets you make aggressive Medic trades because the person with the vitasaw will always have a significant advantage, and the only way to counter it is to run the vita-saw too

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Sydney Sleeper <--- This weapon is supportive instead of a direct kill weapon which is a change for the better in a teamwork based game unlike the rest of FPSs where snipers are there to just camp and 1 hit kill.

most comp level snipers will take a 100% bodyshot over a 50% headshot if both will result in an enemy out of the fight
SS guarentees a disabled enemy when used by someone that's remotely skilled, because staying in the fight with 150 lower hp and a 135% damage vulnerability is suicide
it's also not as fun for spectators to watch compared to Snipers taking quick peeks and getting quickscopes

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Cozy Camper <--- You give up any real close-mid defense for something that slowly heals you and steadies your aim. Not much of an OP accessory I'd say. It just allows the sniper to stay up front for longer.

spam-induced aimpunch is one of the only counters to a passively peeking Sniper, because it prevents them from taking accurate shots and forces them to back down into cover quickly with cozy camper and overheal, a Sniper can land far more consistent headshots during aggressive peeks, and the regen reduces the downtime before he can peek again
Sniper is a fairly un-fun class to play against so it's good to discourage that kind of thing to maintain a fast format

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Darwin's Danger Shield <--- This just gives him some extra HP and vulnerability towards soldier and demo which are both pretty much mandatory classes in 6s.

it forces countersnipers to run it too, because the first headshot is no longer lethal
I dunno about you but forcing players to use a certain weapon sounds like the opposite of "diverse gameplay options" to me
besides, dds lets Snipers get buffed to 225hp which lets them take ridiculously aggressive peeks

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Jarate <--- Killed teamplay once again...

yeah, ruining enemy team pushes for free is completely fine
if it was a reward mechanic it might be alright but when each pick and point of damage has so much weight behind it as in 6's, free damage bonuses are a no-no

[Holly the Jolly]

Publicado originalmente por Mashpit:

first off, rofl at all the armchair strategists that think an open whitelist would actually lead to a more diverse playstyle instead of cheesing the most broken unlocks

anyways, it's worth noting that 6's bans and class limits are not based around making everything viable everywhere (because the classes are not equally powerful to begin with) but around making the game fast, skill-based and fun for both spectators and players

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

cosmetic bans

most of these don't really matter, and not all leagues ban cosmetics

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * B.A.S.E. Jumper <--- A soldier gives up his secondary for slow fall speed, what's supposed to be bad there?

it's one of those bans that ban something that nobody uses anyways - it'll probably be unbanned if enough people asked for it but since nobody cares it stays banned

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Reserve Shooter <--- A lot of people diss this I don't see why. It just rewards airshots.

yeah let's make soldier and pyro better at roamer denial than scout, and punish players for pressing spacebar
no

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Soda Popper <--- Why the hell not? It just adds a ton of mobility to the scout.

higher burst damage than scattergun
higher sustain damage than scattergun past 4th shot
m2 gimmick that lets you screw over projectile classes even more than before

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Bonk! Atomic Punch <--- This is in the game to allow the scout to help with sentries and you lot take it away? Plus airblast disables this pretty easily.

area control is huge in 6's, letting the most powerful flank class get behind enemy lines reliably is a major no-no

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Crit-a-Cola <--- Substitute long range weapon for a temporary buff... Why is this banned?

first off, the fact that you think the pistol is a long range weapon just goes to show how little you know about the game rofl
basically, CaC lets you two-shot sollies while staying out of splash range, and on top it makes the fastest class in the game even faster

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Flying Guillotine <--- Pretty useless weapon unless you're good at these volley weapons.

yeah let's give the class whose only real weakness is lack of spam weapons a spam weapon
besides, it deals 50 instant damage + 30 bleed at any range, which lets scout basically end fights before they begin, while the pistol is a backup/last resort kind of weapon

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Mad Milk <--- This kills any teamplay for scout.

you have no idea how powerful a 60% vampire effect is, if you splash the enemy combo your team gets a free push out of it
on top of that it's available as soon as you have to respawn, it's not a "reward" mechanic

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Atomizer <--- You can have the FoN which is basically this without taking 10 health away... which is better than this...

I shouldn't have to explain this one rofl
if you don't understand why a third jump that can be used mid-combat is ridiculously powerful especially when half of your enemies are projectile classes, stop playing the game

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Disciplinary Action <--- Giving a very short speed buff to someone who happens to be nearby. It's a normal teamplay weapon...

this is mostly to prevent teams from running Heavy to mid with the whip, which slows down the game considerably and makes midfights a game of attrition based around slowly chipping down the enemy Heavy

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Loch-n-Load <--- Really? The signature of this class is spam and the only thing you people ban is the only thing you can't spam with? Guess the geniuses who came up with this are l33t spamfesters. 'Demoman takes skill!'

rofl you think loch takes more aim

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Natascha <--- This is a team weapon punishing enemies who don't use cover, so why?

partly because of the damage resistance making overhealed Heavies even more annoying to take down and partly because nobody likes slowdown

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Dalokohs Bar <--- Why? It doesn't change all that much and replaces the only other means of ranged combat a heavy has.

dunno tbh, if the extra health affected overheal then it would be understandable
probably because nobody uses it anyways

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Sandvich <--- This is a support item, I don't see why it's banned.

300 hp is a lot in 6's, if a team has to use up their ammo supply shooting down a Heavy twice then they won't have damage output left over to deal with the rest of the enemies

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Eviction Notice <--- Don't see why this is banned. Fast close range attacks on the slowest class in the game... Real threat.

see my comment for the base jumper

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Fists of Steel <--- If I remember right this has bullet resistance, if I'm not mistaken I don't see why this is banned, if it's all ranged sources, then I do get this fully.

again, Heavy's sheer health pool makes him an incredibly difficult enemy to take down with just 6 players
with FoS and full overheal, your team can't win against an enemy playing defensively due to lack of damage output

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Gloves of Running Urgently <--- Fast moving with a mark for death. It's like the escape plan... You still have to use it early for it to actually get you out of the situation.

see note for disciplinary action

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Rescue Ranger <--- I actually don't see why this is banned. It's a bloody great weapon which can simply be countered by a lot of damage. Direct hit or stickies (Which nobody bothered to ban) or a combination of any kind of AoE damage that makes the engineer retreat out of wrangler range.

Engi in 6's is a sort of a throwaway class that lets your team have a 217 hp damage sponge and also a player who can immediately switch back to Scout once the sentry goes down
rescue ranger can significantly lengthen the survivability of the sentry by letting the Engi heal it from inside spawn and still be able to switch to a DM class

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Short Circuit <--- I don't see why this is banned, you can no longer spam it.

it's still extremely powerful when half the enemy team uses projectiles, and it neutralizes stickytraps instantly

Publicado originalmente por Saboteur:

// * Wrangler <--- I don't see why this is banned.

wrangled sentries have 648 effective hp
read what I said about Heavies

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// * Gunslinger <--- Nobody likes mini sentries but I still say they're less of a threat than a level 3.

level 3's can't be built in 2 seconds and they don't give you 225 overheal health
it slows down the game considerably by denying flank plays entirely with its chip damage and knockback

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// * Quick-Fix <--- WHY?! If you use this you give up uber and the enemy can still take down an ubered heavy. Hell, a sniper can do it with ONE fully charged headshot. Sure it does a lot of healing but it pays for it in ubercharge usability. Also it allows the scout to actually help the medic by allowing for a speed boost.

the "uber" charges ridiculously fast and 6's don't have enough players to overwhelm the healing rate
we tried using it before, and everyone just ran QF + GRU Heavy
if you like watching fat people shoot at each other to no effect for 30 minutes, then go make your own 6's

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// * Solemn Vow <--- This thing just allows you to see enemy health... Why...

it lessens the communication side of 6's in favor of letting the med just call out who to kill
it lowers the skill requirement of the game, basically

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// * Vita-Saw <--- Retaining ubercharge might be bad but why ban this? It's not exactly super OP... Allows the medic to be up front more without losing all the ubercharge on a death.

it lets you make aggressive Medic trades because the person with the vitasaw will always have a significant advantage, and the only way to counter it is to run the vita-saw too

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// * Sydney Sleeper <--- This weapon is supportive instead of a direct kill weapon which is a change for the better in a teamwork based game unlike the rest of FPSs where snipers are there to just camp and 1 hit kill.

most comp level snipers will take a 100% bodyshot over a 50% headshot if both will result in an enemy out of the fight
SS guarentees a disabled enemy when used by someone that's remotely skilled, because staying in the fight with 150 lower hp and a 135% damage vulnerability is suicide
it's also not as fun for spectators to watch compared to Snipers taking quick peeks and getting quickscopes

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// * Cozy Camper <--- You give up any real close-mid defense for something that slowly heals you and steadies your aim. Not much of an OP accessory I'd say. It just allows the sniper to stay up front for longer.

spam-induced aimpunch is one of the only counters to a passively peeking Sniper, because it prevents them from taking accurate shots and forces them to back down into cover quickly with cozy camper and overheal, a Sniper can land far more consistent headshots during aggressive peeks, and the regen reduces the downtime before he can peek again
Sniper is a fairly un-fun class to play against so it's good to discourage that kind of thing to maintain a fast format

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// * Darwin's Danger Shield <--- This just gives him some extra HP and vulnerability towards soldier and demo which are both pretty much mandatory classes in 6s.

it forces countersnipers to run it too, because the first headshot is no longer lethal
I dunno about you but forcing players to use a certain weapon sounds like the opposite of "diverse gameplay options" to me
besides, dds lets Snipers get buffed to 225hp which lets them take ridiculously aggressive peeks

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// * Jarate <--- Killed teamplay once again...

yeah, ruining enemy team pushes for free is completely fine
if it was a reward mechanic it might be alright but when each pick and point of damage has so much weight behind it as in 6's, free damage bonuses are a no-no

You are wrong about reserve shooter, no longer punishes the space bar

Sodapopper only out dpses after shot 6, and that requires perfect accuracy

Rest is about on point