Been playing heavy with shotgun

[my butt is erect]

I'm not here to tell you it's better than sandvich, but I will tell you it's underrated the sidegrades of having a shotgun.

Specifically I've been using that shotgun that shoots faster, 8 ammo capacity and is a little weaker. Generally I pair with stock minigun and running gloves. I will say if you're using tomislav, there's less reason to use a shotgun. I mostly don't like tomislav and when I use it I do switch to a food item.

Shotgun benefits:
- Able to fight while dodging a little
- Ready to fire while retreating to a health pack or safe zone
- Instant attack ready if surprised while traveling to the fighting area. Spinning up after being surprised is basically how heavy dies.
- Pick off stragglers/escapers while actually being able to chase and run around.
- Yes it is possible to run out of ammo occasionally and the shotgun saves you here. This is also allowing you to play more spammy with your minigun which has its benefits such as pummeling teams with chip damage and extra thorough spy checking aka spamming all entrances and walls.
- Actually able to traverse a battlefield while fighting
-Missing a throwable med kit sucks, but consider the occasional times you risk swapping to throw or eat sandvich and just get ambushed.
- Less vulnerable bait for sniper and spy
- Enemies can't just easily peek corners and take 2 damage of minigun while trading with a rocket to your face. They risk taking a shotgun blast which will do way more in a .5 second situation.

You may be surprised how much slower heavy dies when he can peek around corners and run around a little while shooting, compared to miniguns where he basically can't move. Making explosions do less damage isn't a joke you know.

FYI I mostly play payload if you find this relevant. It's been fun and definitely comes in clutch at times although there is a good amount of nuance about deciding to hold it out or have a minigun ready. And something people don't seem to get is that there really are situations where holding a shotgun is better than holding a minigun.

[solar controller]

Poongoolie a écrit :

Some of this can be discussed but most of these are straight up advantages the shotgun has over minigun.

They’re only advantages when you’re completely adapting your playstyle around no longer having a healing tool on standby.
Some aren’t even real benefits

Poongoolie a écrit :

- Less vulnerable bait for sniper and spy

as soon as you pull out ur primary you go back to being pick class food. It’s not a real upside unless you intentionally do not use your minigun with the shotty equipped.

Poongoolie a écrit :

- Enemies can't just easily peek corners and take 2 damage of minigun while trading with a rocket to your face.

you traditionally have a sandwich to heal back any damage you facetank from players rounding a corner. Using a shotgun doesn’t immediately guarantee players will respect your corners any more than they would with a minigun, but it certainly makes it difficult to re-enter a fight after such an encounter. Only a real benefit if you do not pre-rev when playing corners.

Poongoolie a écrit :

This is also allowing you to play more spammy with your minigun which has its benefits such as pummeling teams with chip damage and extra thorough spy checking aka spamming all entrances and walls.

It’s as if saying that using the shotgun allows soldier to play more spammy and spy check with his rl. unless you’re trying, there are not many situations where you’ll run out of minigun ammo purely spychecking or spamming

Poongoolie a écrit :

- Able to fight while dodging a little

even this isn’t truly a real upside since heavy is the largest and slowest class in the game; moving 47% less slower doesn’t change much when you can’t even dodge at base stats. Only an enticing option if you have poor positioning which forces you to take fights where you’re required to dodge to survive.

Realistically the only benefit the shotty brings is when retreating, but heavy is also a class that lives and dies by his minigun anyways, so it’s not really worth trading the sustainability of lunchbox items just so you can retreat to a health pack a bit safer (as opposed to bringing the health pack to you).

Victor a écrit :

shotgun's only downside is it is not a lunchbox item

The only downside of the shotgun on pyro is it’s not a flare gun.

[Watereaters]

solar a écrit :

Have you tried leaving your comfort zone and actually trying shotgun on those classes? And I don't mean playing in the way you think it makes you play, actually trying to do well with it?

[jungus]

Watereaters a écrit :

solar a écrit :

Have you tried leaving your comfort zone and actually trying shotgun on those classes? And I don't mean playing in the way you think it makes you play, actually trying to do well with it?

Pyro and Soldier actually have more broad uses for the shotgun. On Heavy: it's an option you could maybe consider in niche situations where, even then, the minigun is still usable.

[Fireschlong #2Broke4MannUp]

As a Brass Beast enjoyer, the shotgun is quite valuable to an entity like me, who would otherwise be vulnerable to unexpected encounters.

I still usually take the Sandvich or Dalokohs. Kind of difficult to not choose a health pack on demand over a backup weapon.

[solar controller]

Watereaters a écrit :

solar a écrit :

Have you tried leaving your comfort zone and actually trying shotgun on those classes?

yes. I can also say that it gets overshadowed by other unlocks for very good reasons, and simply stating that the only reason it's not "viable" is because "it's not x" is a very reductive way of looking at it.

it assumes that the shotgun is inherently the best choice for these classes, and the only reason it's not used is because the alternatives are leaps and bounds better than it (which while technically true, ignores the more nuanced factors that make them a more enticing option).
You do not see players argue in favor of the shotgun on pyro because despite being a very consistent option for dealing damage, players generally prefer flareguns, even though it does relatively the same damage and compromises the consistency of cqc.

for heavy specifically, nobody uses the shotgun because sandwich fits the class' role so much better for bunkering and soaking damage. shotgun doesn't allow heavy to do this as well as sandwich, and therefore it is not only an inferior choice (not to say shotgun is bad, since it isn't (in a vacuum)) but also less fun for the player using it.
oftentimes, the percieved "benefits" from using the shotgun are just the areas where the shotgun excels at when heavy does not have a sandwich to bail him out (i.e, having a fighting option when retreating to health is not necessary when the sandwich brings the health to you).
classes like soldier and engineer make a stronger argument in favor of running shotgun without any strings attached, but they are generally less enjoyable and so players overlook them even if they find themselves in a situation where it is advantageous.

overall, shotgun isn't necessarily "bad," but the reason it is not used is because players have realized what they want out of a class, and simple hitscan doesn't provide it.
I want to rocket jump instead of waddle even if the enemy team has 4 pyros. I want to sponge damage and gamble my life on the frontlines instead of constantly running back for health whenever someone sneezes on me.

[Sedra]

solar a écrit :

Watereaters a écrit :

Have you tried leaving your comfort zone and actually trying shotgun on those classes?

for heavy specifically, nobody uses the shotgun because sandwich fits the class' role so much better for bunkering and soaking damage. shotgun doesn't allow heavy to do this as well as sandwich, and therefore it is not only an inferior choice (not to say shotgun is bad, since it isn't (in a vacuum)) but also less fun for the player using it.

Who are you to tell other people how much fun they can have on any given playstyle?

Breaking from the meta and experimenting is part of what keeps games fun and alive. The last thing any of us want is for this to be a "solved" game.

[solar controller]

Sedra a écrit :

solar a écrit :

for heavy specifically, nobody uses the shotgun because sandwich fits the class' role so much better for bunkering and soaking damage. shotgun doesn't allow heavy to do this as well as sandwich, and therefore it is not only an inferior choice (not to say shotgun is bad, since it isn't (in a vacuum)) but also less fun for the player using it.

Who are you to tell other people how much fun they can have on any given playstyle?

Breaking from the meta and experimenting is part of what keeps games fun and alive. The last thing any of us want is for this to be a "solved" game.

i'm not telling you that you can't have fun with different strategies, but simply that most players play heavy for a specific reason; if they didn't want to, they'd simply play another class that is more relevant to them.

arguing otherwise is kind of silly; would be like accusing me of enforcing a meta by saying people play medic to support their team. people will play the way they want and the most accepted way to play heavy is as the team's anchor. people aren't selecting medic to run around with the syringes since that's not usually what people play the class for.

[Sedra]

solar a écrit :

Sedra a écrit :

Who are you to tell other people how much fun they can have on any given playstyle?

Breaking from the meta and experimenting is part of what keeps games fun and alive. The last thing any of us want is for this to be a "solved" game.

i'm not telling you that you can't have fun with different strategies, but simply that most players play heavy for a specific reason; if they didn't want to, they'd simply play another class that is more relevant to them.

arguing otherwise is kind of silly; would be like accusing me of enforcing a meta by saying people play medic to support their team, since breaking from the meta and playing battle medic or w/e is fun and engaging. ofc people are going to pick the unlocks that play into the role of being the team's anchor, that's what primarily draws people to heavy. nobody (generally speaking) is picking medic to run around with the syringe gun.

This is a fair assessment.

Overall though I still feel like the shotgun plays well into Heavy's role. Earlier there was mention of shotguns enforcing a more passive playstyle but having more ammo means you can be more mobile and aggressive.

I use both, with the shotgun on loadouts with slower miniguns. All playstyles are fun, in my eyes.

[Sedrido]

the main problem is that most of what you described could be mitigated by just using the tomislav where it revs almost instantly is a bit better at ranged combat and shoots for longer (because of its lower firing speed) while keeping a heal at hand. however if you use other miniguns (especially slower rev miniguns) the shotguns are better than people give them credit for

[my butt is erect]

Orc Gaming a écrit :

the main problem is that most of what you described could be mitigated by just using the tomislav where it revs almost instantly is a bit better at ranged combat and shoots for longer (because of its lower firing speed) while keeping a heal at hand. however if you use other miniguns (especially slower rev miniguns) the shotguns are better than people give them credit for

Yeah kinda, so that's why I did mention the tomislav reducing how much shotgun helps. But obviously the thing then is that close range your minigun is worse, often problematic especially against another heavy or high hp classes. Or just busting through a horde of invading enemies, kind of heavy's strength.

Like someone else said, the inverse, such as using Natasha or brass beast (extremely slow startup) makes shotgun even better. I do think tomislav and shotgun is generally a dumb combo.

[Victor]

solar a écrit :

The only downside of the shotgun on pyro is it’s not a flare gun.

I think thermal thruster would be a far better item pair, to make a comparison to shotgun vs lunchbox though.
Food items and thruster are dedicated class utility items.
Shotguns and flares, at least both are weapons.
You can't really thruster nor sandwich someone to death well.
You can family business, shotgun or flare them to death. More apples to apples.

Aside from that point, I feel sandwich tends have far more general utility in what a heavy gains, than I feel the thruster grants to pyro's ability to play pyro.

solar a écrit :

overall, shotgun isn't necessarily "bad," but the reason it is not used is because players have realized what they want out of a class, and simple hitscan doesn't provide it.

This is a good take

[solar controller]

Sedra a écrit :

Earlier there was mention of shotguns enforcing a more passive playstyle but having more ammo means you can be more mobile and aggressive.

on paper, yes. but heavy is slow and has a big hitbox. sandwich allows him to facetank more damage while being a frontliner. shotgun automatically makes poot a more passive class on virtue of it not giving him health, because of the downtime you spend between fighting and getting healed.
it's no knock on the weapon itself, but using it to be more aggressive is counterproductive.

Victor a écrit :

I think thermal thruster would be a far better item pair... Aside from that point, I feel sandwich tends have far more general utility in what a heavy gains, than I feel the thruster grants to pyro's ability to play pyro.

not really. t's not about strict utility, but more what players have fun with as opposed to the stock option.
i make the comparison between the shotty and gunboats/flares/sandwich because those are the weapons that players deem to fit their preferred playstyles.

players tend to gravitate towards weapons that encourage a certain playstyle. the reasons why thermal thruster isn't a popular pick despite it being a strict utility tool are important to highlight because it gives understanding into why players have a collective preference for specific unlocks.