Unpopular Opinion: Bring Back Sandman Stun Mechanic

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

The sandman is literally useless now. No-one uses it anymore at all. Everyone arguing against the sandman says that it kept interrupting the flow of the game by giving the scout a momentary upper advantage. No ♥♥♥♥, that’s how all situational weapons should work. The scout uses skill; which is required to do better in game, most players would agree (except your average W+M1 pyro); to launch the ball at a certain distance and hit the target dead on, giving him an immediate advantage and reward for his skill. All other weapons work like this. If you’re mad that a scout kept hitting you and stunning you, then that means you would need a more effective counter or that you needed to just move around more and be more unpredictable.

Think of it this way: if a scout misses a ball, it directly punishes him by instead missing out on a few potential meat shots, or any actual damaging shots. It’s not like it doesn’t punish the scout at all. Instead of nerfing literally every scout weapon except a select few to uselessness like you’ve done for all of the past few updates (notably the jungle inferno update), why don’t you just rework them so that they aren’t being made useless all of a sudden? For instance, the baby face blaster’s boost is reduced WAY too easily. I can agree it was initially OP without a hit punish, but 25 damage is all it takes to reduce it way down (literally less than 3 pistol shots or a very brief exposure with a pyro). This effectively killed most use of the weapon and made it ineffective in most situations. Instead, make the damage needed to be taken something more like 65-75 damage.

This takes us back to the sandman. Make it so the stun mechanic is harder to achieve, like at a longer distance for all those players that felt their rights were being infringed upon, as if they were being forcibly raped by the scout with the sandman and there was nothing they could do about it while they were stunned. I do not understand why the scorch shiт gets to be essentially skill-free and easily spammable without nerfs at all and yet the sandman of all things, which actually does require skill, is being nerfed to the grave.

EDIT: So many people complained about projectile speed being too fast for skill to be applied. This is why I suggest we nerf the speed of the projectile to a suitable level and make it so that you can't stun until you reach at least medium distance, which even then the cooldown of the stun effect will be very quickly worn off. The scout won't immediately be able to pair the stun with two easy meatshots from that distance and will still do damage, but not enough to sufficiently kill the enemy. Long distance shots will apply more stun time and moonshots with the sandman will be achieved at a very far distance. Adds more skill and accuracy to the sandman, so it's less spammable and not as easily exploitable.

[Smugleaf]

The stun is only worth it if it stuns ubers like in its release state.

[Beep Boy]

I loved and hated this mechanics at the same time. I loved it, because it was so easy to pull it off. I got many easy kills with it.
I hated it, because most scunt mains used this, laughed after every kill with this combo and spammed lenny faces in the chat.
Stun mechanic shouldn't comeback, becouse this mechanic guaranties easy kills in short range.

[BloodiestBanana]

Should sandman and baby face's blaster get a buff? yes
Should valve bring back the stunt mechanic? no

[76561199159386812]

buff sandman recharge

[Big Sloppie]

Instead of stun:

• [+] Increase recharge rate
  
  
• [+] Mark target for death
  
  
• [+] Keep slow mechanic
  
  
• [-] Decrease maximum health by 25

Higher risk Fan of War.

[Emurinus]

1. Paragraphs.

2. Stun was removed for being absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to fight. Getting nailed even at the minimum stun range was often a guaranteed win in Scout's favor, and he's already the best DM class as is.

There was no reasonable counter to getting stunned because it slowed you down and removed your ability to fight back at all. Getting the ball to hit someone was also braindead easy when it's literally one of the fastest projectiles in the game, can instantly recharge when picked up, and passively recharges; and again, this is on the class that can pick his own fights and already dominates most matchups.

3. The Baby Face's is still Scout's second best unlock after the nerfs. You're still going to outrun all but other Scouts under most circumstances, and you only need to do 25 damage to bring yourself back up to normal speed anyways.

4. Yes, the Sandman could get a buff at this point, but it should never be reverted.

5. The Scorch ♥♥♥♥ needs nerfed too. Just turn it into a pocket rocket (innuendo intended).

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Originally posted by Emurinus:

1. Paragraphs.

2. Stun was removed for being absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to fight. Getting nailed even at the minimum stun range was often a guaranteed win in Scout's favor, and he's already the best DM class as is.

There was no reasonable counter to getting stunned because it slowed you down and removed your ability to fight back at all. Getting the ball to hit someone was also braindead easy when it's literally one of the fastest projectiles in the game, can instantly recharge when picked up, and passively recharges; and again, this is on the class that can pick his own fights and already dominates most matchups.

3. The Baby Face's is still Scout's second best unlock after the nerfs. You're still going to outrun all but other Scouts under most circumstances, and you only need to do 25 damage to bring yourself back up to normal speed anyways.

4. Yes, the Sandman could get a buff at this point, but it should never be reverted.

5. The Scorch ♥♥♥♥ needs nerfed too. Just turn it into a pocket rocket (innuendo intended).

1. With the paragraphs, I was typing on my phone and had poor sense of how much I had written beforehand, so apologies for the hard-to-read format.

2. Natascha heavy and engie are reasonable counters to this weapon, as with many other weapons/ loadouts I can’t be bothered to reference here. Also, I agree with the ease of hitting sometimes, so I propose a slower ball velocity would be good if it were reintroduced. Even then, it wasn’t impossible nor even hard to fight against. You could still dodge and effectively combat the scout.

I vividly remember back in the day being stunned sometimes and just being able to quickly get back to normal and then end up killing the sandman scout as other classes. It was only the skilled scouts that could repetitively hit you over and over again and actually pose a threat to you.

3. I would argue that the scout primary from best to worst would go from:
- Scattergun
- Soda Popper
- Force of Nature
- Baby Face Blaster
- Backscatter
- Shortstop

Also, baby face’s blaster took somewhere around two meatshots [EDIT: My mistake, was around 1 meatshot] to gain full boost again. Not the very small amount of 25 damage. You lost your boost at that rate though. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be complaining. I heard you need to do 4x the damage you take 24/7 in order to consistently stay fast. While that may be possible, especially with skilled scouts, it is easily negated by the fact even a small amount of damage will set you down all the way again and leave you open to being killed extremely easily being that slow.

4. I agree. But I still think a stun mechanic can be reincluded as a balanced mechanic.

5. I agree. Needs to be less spammable and have higher risk for reward rather than just shoot in a general direction and be rewarded for that style of gameplay.

[Beep Boy]

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

Originally posted by Emurinus:

1. Paragraphs.

2. Stun was removed for being absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to fight. Getting nailed even at the minimum stun range was often a guaranteed win in Scout's favor, and he's already the best DM class as is.

There was no reasonable counter to getting stunned because it slowed you down and removed your ability to fight back at all. Getting the ball to hit someone was also braindead easy when it's literally one of the fastest projectiles in the game, can instantly recharge when picked up, and passively recharges; and again, this is on the class that can pick his own fights and already dominates most matchups.

3. The Baby Face's is still Scout's second best unlock after the nerfs. You're still going to outrun all but other Scouts under most circumstances, and you only need to do 25 damage to bring yourself back up to normal speed anyways.

4. Yes, the Sandman could get a buff at this point, but it should never be reverted.

5. The Scorch ♥♥♥♥ needs nerfed too. Just turn it into a pocket rocket (innuendo intended).

1. With the paragraphs, I was typing on my phone and had poor sense of how much I had written beforehand, so apologies for the hard-to-read format.

2. Natascha heavy and engie are reasonable counters to this weapon, as with many other weapons/ loadouts I can’t be bothered to reference here. Also, I agree with the ease of hitting sometimes, so I propose a slower ball velocity would be good if it were reintroduced. Even then, it wasn’t impossible nor even hard to fight against. You could still dodge and effectively combat the scout.

I vividly remember back in the day being stunned sometimes and just being able to quickly get back to normal and then end up killing the sandman scout as other classes. It was only the skilled scouts that could repetitively hit you over and over again and actually pose a threat to you.

3. I would argue that the scout primary from best to worst would go from:
- Scattergun
- Soda Popper
- Force of Nature
- Baby Face Blaster
- Backscatter
- Shortstop

Also, baby face’s blaster took somewhere around two meatshots to gain full boost again. Not the very small amount of 25 damage. You lost your boost at that rate though. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be complaining. I heard you need to do 4x the damage you take 24/7 in order to consistently stay fast. While that may be possible, especially with skilled scouts, it is easily negated by the fact even a small amount of damage will set you down all the way again and leave you open to being killed extremely easily being that slow.

4. I agree. But I still think a stun mechanic can be reincluded as a balanced mechanic.

5. I agree. Needs to be less spammable and have higher risk for reward rather than just shoot in a general direction and be rewarded for that style of gameplay.

Did you forget about Sandman + Flying Guilotine combo. The most easiest way to kill the opponent. Then you know what comes next :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6RkRfBRgsM

[twunny phaiv]

You don't need to write a wall of text because the response is gonna be "stun bad" no matter what

[Vror]

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

The scout uses skill to launch the ball at a certain distance and hit the target dead on, giving him an immediate advantage and reward for his skill.

This is where you're extremely wrong and proves this is either bait or you're a newbie

Are you really claiming that hitting a projectile that's almost 3 times faster than the grenade launcher takes skill? Go clown somewhere else

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Originally posted by Vror:

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

The scout uses skill to launch the ball at a certain distance and hit the target dead on, giving him an immediate advantage and reward for his skill.

This is where you're extremely wrong and proves this is either bait or you're a newbie

Are you really claiming that hitting a projectile that's almost 3 times faster than the grenade launcher takes skill? Go clown somewhere else

How about instead of assuming I’m a noob or that I’m clowning (probably had TF2 for way longer than you pal) you actually provide constructive criticism other than just saying the projectile is too fast? In a previous reply I admitted that, yes, it was too fast and that it could take some sort of nerf in terms of velocity. No need to show your toxicity, although I’d understand more if you got ‘sandman raped’ as many others claim they have.

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Originally posted by Beep Boy:

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

1. With the paragraphs, I was typing on my phone and had poor sense of how much I had written beforehand, so apologies for the hard-to-read format.

2. Natascha heavy and engie are reasonable counters to this weapon, as with many other weapons/ loadouts I can’t be bothered to reference here. Also, I agree with the ease of hitting sometimes, so I propose a slower ball velocity would be good if it were reintroduced. Even then, it wasn’t impossible nor even hard to fight against. You could still dodge and effectively combat the scout.

I vividly remember back in the day being stunned sometimes and just being able to quickly get back to normal and then end up killing the sandman scout as other classes. It was only the skilled scouts that could repetitively hit you over and over again and actually pose a threat to you.

3. I would argue that the scout primary from best to worst would go from:
- Scattergun
- Soda Popper
- Force of Nature
- Baby Face Blaster
- Backscatter
- Shortstop

Also, baby face’s blaster took somewhere around two meatshots to gain full boost again. Not the very small amount of 25 damage. You lost your boost at that rate though. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be complaining. I heard you need to do 4x the damage you take 24/7 in order to consistently stay fast. While that may be possible, especially with skilled scouts, it is easily negated by the fact even a small amount of damage will set you down all the way again and leave you open to being killed extremely easily being that slow.

4. I agree. But I still think a stun mechanic can be reincluded as a balanced mechanic.

5. I agree. Needs to be less spammable and have higher risk for reward rather than just shoot in a general direction and be rewarded for that style of gameplay.

Did you forget about Sandman + Flying Guilotine combo. The most easiest way to kill the opponent. Then you know what comes next :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6RkRfBRgsM

I realise this was a thing. I wasn’t talking about the combo though. Just the sandman in general. I agree that was too OP, as well. All I’m saying here is the stun mechanic CAN be reintroduced, just reworked and less OP as it was.

[Vror]

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

Originally posted by Vror:

This is where you're extremely wrong and proves this is either bait or you're a newbie

Are you really claiming that hitting a projectile that's almost 3 times faster than the grenade launcher takes skill? Go clown somewhere else

How about instead of assuming I’m a noob or that I’m clowning (probably had TF2 for way longer than you pal) you actually provide constructive criticism other than just saying the projectile is too fast? In a previous reply I admitted that, yes, it was too fast and that it could take some sort of nerf in terms of velocity. No need to show your toxicity, although I’d understand more if you got ‘sandman raped’ as many others claim they have.

Projecting too hard, insults and calling me the noob (even tho I have 8000 hours) and wanting constructive critisism after doing 0 research (you will get good critisism when you actually think about the stuff you claim before hitting the post button)

Yup, this is clearly bait
Also, INB4 you say something along the lines "no life"

[Smugleaf]

The important thing with stuns to analysis in a Summerian way would probably be by asking what value they actually add to the game.

In general, stuns are inherently meant to be unfun to play against as it allows you to take away another player's control and leaves you to their mercy. Making it fun and fair is basically an impossible goal as it'd contradict the very nature of what makes stuns appealing. If you keep it too tame and mild like current Sandman, it'd be pointless. If you made it useful, then people would want it nerfed/removed.

If you made it require long distance for stuns or whatever various other ideas there are, then it'd probably be fine in a sense, but it likely wouldn't be too useful due to its unreliability. And if that's the case, then it comes into question again on what value it truly has.

At best, it'd just be an "I clapped!" moment, which a bunch of stuff in this game admittedly tries to invoke. I'd say that Sandman Dude's Cleaver is basically a prime example of shallow manipulation for R*dditors.

Overall, stuns are essentially RC Cola except with the S&M vibes being more obvious.

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

3. Also, baby face’s blaster took somewhere around two meatshots to gain full boost again. Not the very small amount of 25 damage. You lost your boost at that rate though. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be complaining. I heard you need to do 4x the damage you take 24/7 in order to consistently stay fast. While that may be possible, especially with skilled scouts, it is easily negated by the fact even a small amount of damage will set you down all the way again and leave you open to being killed extremely easily being that slow.

It's only 100 damage for a full boost. It's not just possible, but it's something that half-decent scouts should be able to accomplish. Even in pubs, unless you're playing on a particularly terrible map or if the enemy team is engineer stacking, it's not hard to gain boost. Maintaining it might be a different matter that differentiates who knows how to play with the BFB or not, but gaining full boost in itself isn't particularly difficult.

The gun itself also only has a lower clip size and the scout is slower without any boost. That's the only actual downsides that aren't completely tied with the boost mechanic. Another important note is that BFB scout with no boost is still faster than the base speed of all classes with the obvious exception being himself.

[Man of Mines | castaway.tf]

Originally posted by Vror:

Originally posted by Man of Mines:

How about instead of assuming I’m a noob or that I’m clowning (probably had TF2 for way longer than you pal) you actually provide constructive criticism other than just saying the projectile is too fast? In a previous reply I admitted that, yes, it was too fast and that it could take some sort of nerf in terms of velocity. No need to show your toxicity, although I’d understand more if you got ‘sandman raped’ as many others claim they have.

Projecting too hard, insults and calling me the noob (even tho I have 8000 hours) and wanting constructive critisism after doing 0 research (you will get good critisism when you actually think about the stuff you claim before hitting the post button)

Yup, this is clearly bait
Also, INB4 you say something along the lines "no life"

Yup, this is clearly a toxic forum troll. Time to move on here. Thanks for giving me the heads up man.