My rework attempt for the Dead Ringer.

[Enigma_Official]

I saw a video made by a Spy player talking about why the DR is so annoying, and they compared it to Soldier’s Escape Plan.

The EP rewards a well times escape with a speed boost, but can all but confirm you death if timed badly, because of the Marked for Death status.

The Dead Ringer gives you invisibility, damage resistance, a speed boost, a fake corpse and a fake death message, ♥♥♥♥ you.

I think the best way to fix it would be to give it higher upsides in some regards, whilst taking away some of its other abundant buffs. I think the damage resistance should be removed entirely, which is also a healthy blow to Kunai Spies, since anything that could one-shot them, will still one-shot them, ♥♥♥♥ you. The Spy will also be marked for death whilst they’re invisible, but the trade-offs are they get to keep the speed boost for the duration of their invisibility, allowing them to get out or preferably, get in easier. Also let it get some extra charge from ammo packs or something, even if it’s only 20%.

[Spartykins]

feign death just isn't a fun mechanic in a game like this

[smat3us]

Ringer should only be able to regain charge from ammo when activated at most and should always loose all charge when deactivated, else we risk the (re)introduction of the old immortal vampire spy plauge.
Marked for death whilst being invisible is kinda counter-productive. The biiig crossbones is what makes marked soo deadly, w/o it the minicrits taken is nowhere near as bad, as theres no biig eye magnet to draw everyones fire onto him. Not to mention that the ringers core concept is a getaway watch, soo marked for death doesnt really fit that. Unless ya gut the whole core concept of it, at which point ya dont rework but redesing the weapon.
The resistances are a bit too much when combined w the speed buff, one of them needs to go, i agree with that.
Speed boost for the full cloak duration, is a decent buff tho... Spy really needs more moblitiy options.
However, a mobility boosting watch really feels like it should be on its own, mayhaps even its own unlock category.
Unfortunately the weapon is in the conceptually broken bin, no amount of ballancing will ever fix it, its whole concept needs to be gutted in order to make it a not unfun weapon to play against.

[Rando the Crit Clown]

You may as well just make the Dead Ringer a stock reskin instead of make it completely unusable like you're suggesting. Actually a stock reskin would be pretty cool, the watch model is awesome but the actual mechanics of it are rather poor.

[calembredaine]

i'd scrap the whole "specializes in easier escapes" concept. fleeing so easily is anticlimatic and the spy's virtually dead until he gets a charge back. it's boring.

though if you're fine with one tapping cowards every minute or so, it's not that obnoxious. just a gimmick like the entire class. maybe stop the speed boost if you decloak very early.

Originally posted by Spartykins ❤:

feign death just isn't a fun mechanic in a game like this

should have been an easter egg feature on stock at most. no buff, no penalty. just a fake death if you time some secret key right.

[Astyl]

Congratulations, I haven't heard a worse idea for the Dead Ringer.

[Watereaters]

How about remove the recharge so he has to go to a resupply cabinet before he can feign death again.

[Dunhill]

it's like I'm hearing an angry 11 year old try to disguise his angry rant as a balance discussion

[76561199584261538]

Originally posted by Smoke:

it's like I'm hearing an angry 11 year old try to disguise his angry rant as a balance discussion

Real, he probably mains engi

[76561199584261538]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ opinion

[/I\]

The issue with dead ringer is basically (as already mentioned) it being a cheap get out of jail card, which has little to nothing to do with what it should be.

The feign death is 90% obvious to enemies, yet they can't do much, cuz (decent) spies will basically tp out of the battlefield thanks to speed boost and damage resistances that it provides, turning fights with death ringer spies into trying to smash a flying wasp which is stinging you on and on.

I have some ideas in mind, that would make the watch what it should be in the first place aka "feign death thing" instead of a flyaway button. The current ringer would be way better on something like L'escapette from tf2 classic.


New dead ringer:

- Speed boost removed entirely

- Damage resistances (except fire) after activating removed entirely

- 1.3 Seconds of 100% fire resistance after activating

- When deployed: 100% resistance to critical dmg from non melee weapons.

- When dmg exceeds spy's health, he will be left with 1 hp * (not sure about that)

- The watch starts full, but can be only recharged after a kill or assist (which is 50% per each kill and 15% per each assist). L'etranger and Big Earner do not provide extra cloak on kill or dmg for this watch.

- The watch can be activated regardless of charge.

- No longer drains 50% on being activated

- Doesnt reveal in water and when bumped into enemy, but still from dmg.

- Can use ammo packs to extend invis duration while invisible

- Cannot use ammo packs to recharge the watch when not invisible


The new ringer would be more closer to the feign death- strat, as it should be according to desgin.

Its no longer a free flyaway button, since if enemy realized that you faked, he can now easily chase you down, thus requiring you to be more careful, creative and convincing when activating it. From enemy pov, it will be less frustrating to deal with a spy, since he will no longer be able to escape easily from a bad position.

To compensate for the big nerfs. The watch is also made more aligned with the rest of watches by having nearly the same duration. it also has some extra benefits that reward you for successfully fooling the enemy that "killed you" and making it harder to be re-detected by enemies.

[76561199584261538]

Originally posted by |★| Veteran:

The issue with dead ringer is basically (as already mentioned) it being a cheap get out of jail card, which has little to nothing to do with what it should be.

The feign death is 90% obvious to enemies, yet they can't do much, cuz (decent) spies will basically tp out of the battlefield thanks to speed boost and damage resistances that it provides, turning fights with death ringer spies into trying to smash a flying wasp which is stinging you on and on.

I have some ideas in mind, that would make the watch what it should be in the first place aka "feign death thing" instead of a flyaway button. The current ringer would be way better on something like L'escapette from tf2 classic.


New dead ringer:

- Speed boost removed entirely

- Damage resistance after activating removed entirely

- When deployed: 100% resistance to critical dmg from non melee weapons.

- The watch starts full, but can be only recharged after a kill or assist (which is 50% per each kill and 15% per each assist). L'etranger and Big Earner do not provide extra cloak on kill or dmg for this watch.

- The watch can be activated regardless of charge.

- No longer drains 50% on being activated

- -10% max cloak time

- Doesnt reveal in water and when bumped into enemy.

- Can use ammo packs to extend invis duration while invisible

- Cannot use ammo packs to recharge the watch


The new ringer would be more closer to the feign death- strat, as it should be according to desgin.

Its no longer a free flyaway button, since if enemy realized that you faked, he can now easily chase you down, thus requiring you to be more careful, creative and convincing when activating it. From enemy pov, it will be less frustrating to deal with a spy, since he will no longer be able to escape easily from a bad position.

To compensate for the big nerfs. The watch is also made more aligned with the rest of watches by having nearly the same duration. it also has some extra benefits that reward you for successfully fooling the enemy that "killed you" and making it harder to be re-detected by enemies.

That a lotta words, im readin' em

[Dunhill]

Originally posted by |★| Veteran:

The issue with dead ringer is basically (as already mentioned) it being a cheap get out of jail card, which has little to nothing to do with what it should be.

The feign death is 90% obvious to enemies, yet they can't do much, cuz (decent) spies will basically tp out of the battlefield thanks to speed boost and damage resistances that it provides, turning fights with death ringer spies into trying to smash a flying wasp which is stinging you on and on.

I have some ideas in mind, that would make the watch what it should be in the first place aka "feign death thing" instead of a flyaway button. The current ringer would be way better on something like L'escapette from tf2 classic.


New dead ringer:

- Speed boost removed entirely

- Damage resistances (except fire) after activating removed entirely

- 1.3 Seconds of 100% fire resistance after activating

- When deployed: 100% resistance to critical dmg from non melee weapons.

- When dmg exceeds spy's health, he will be left with 1 hp * (not sure about that)

- The watch starts full, but can be only recharged after a kill or assist (which is 50% per each kill and 15% per each assist). L'etranger and Big Earner do not provide extra cloak on kill or dmg for this watch.

- The watch can be activated regardless of charge.

- No longer drains 50% on being activated

- Doesnt reveal in water and when bumped into enemy, but still from dmg.

- Can use ammo packs to extend invis duration while invisible

- Cannot use ammo packs to recharge the watch when not invisible


The new ringer would be more closer to the feign death- strat, as it should be according to desgin.

Its no longer a free flyaway button, since if enemy realized that you faked, he can now easily chase you down, thus requiring you to be more careful, creative and convincing when activating it. From enemy pov, it will be less frustrating to deal with a spy, since he will no longer be able to escape easily from a bad position.

To compensate for the big nerfs. The watch is also made more aligned with the rest of watches by having nearly the same duration. it also has some extra benefits that reward you for successfully fooling the enemy that "killed you" and making it harder to be re-detected by enemies.

Speed boost has been an integral stat of the dead ringer for close to 9 years. With that in mind, just drop the argument of what the weapon should be. It's an escape tool and the only reason people hate it so much is that spy is such a piece of ♥♥♥♥ class that they're so very used to most direct encounters with spy landing them a free kill.

But hey, let's look at your redesign.

"- Speed boost removed entirely"
massive nerf

"- Damage resistances (except fire) after activating removed entirely"
massive nerf, defeats the point of the watch

"- 1.3 Seconds of 100% fire resistance after activating"
I don't see why it should be disproportionately effective against pyro.

"- When deployed: 100% resistance to critical dmg from non melee weapons."
completely irrelevant

"- When dmg exceeds spy's health, he will be left with 1 hp * (not sure about that)"
Having to pick up two health packs is arguably worse than just dying.
This stat isn't nearly as good as you think it is, and all it will do is make newbies reliant on it and perform even worse.

"- The watch starts full, but can be only recharged after a kill or assist (which is 50% per each kill and 15% per each assist). L'etranger and Big Earner do not provide extra cloak on kill or dmg for this watch."
Yet another massive nerf. You'd need to be performing absurdly well in order to make this watch worth it, and that's without your other massive nerfs. That's assuming the stat works, but it can be completely bypassed using other stats.

"- The watch can be activated regardless of charge."
defeats the point of the watch and allows for abuse in conjunction with other stats

"- No longer drains 50% on being activated"
a very big buff that allows for abuse in conjunction with other stats

"- Doesnt reveal in water and when bumped into enemy, but still from dmg."
mostly irrelevant

"- Can use ammo packs to extend invis duration while invisible"
a very big buff that allows for abuse in conjunction with other stats

"- Cannot use ammo packs to recharge the watch when not invisible"
completely irrelevant because of other stats


Alright, so with the new deadringer, I find an ammo pack, I go invisible on command to pick it up because being invisible allows me to do so and now I actually can cloak on command. I won't experience any penalties, and I'll just get some cloak back. I'll see an enemy, cloak on command and decloak on command once it's safe, but I'll make sure to not use 100% of my cloak so I can go invisible again to pick up ammo crates.

You've made stock without cloak regen, but it's disproportionately good against pyros and doesn't pair well with unlocks. With a single watch, you have some weird mix of spycicle without its downside, invis without regen and the big earner without the speed boost and health penalty.



The TF2 community and their balance ideas...

[76561199584261538]

Originally posted by Smoke:

Originally posted by |★| Veteran:

The issue with dead ringer is basically (as already mentioned) it being a cheap get out of jail card, which has little to nothing to do with what it should be.

The feign death is 90% obvious to enemies, yet they can't do much, cuz (decent) spies will basically tp out of the battlefield thanks to speed boost and damage resistances that it provides, turning fights with death ringer spies into trying to smash a flying wasp which is stinging you on and on.

I have some ideas in mind, that would make the watch what it should be in the first place aka "feign death thing" instead of a flyaway button. The current ringer would be way better on something like L'escapette from tf2 classic.


New dead ringer:

- Speed boost removed entirely

- Damage resistances (except fire) after activating removed entirely

- 1.3 Seconds of 100% fire resistance after activating

- When deployed: 100% resistance to critical dmg from non melee weapons.

- When dmg exceeds spy's health, he will be left with 1 hp * (not sure about that)

- The watch starts full, but can be only recharged after a kill or assist (which is 50% per each kill and 15% per each assist). L'etranger and Big Earner do not provide extra cloak on kill or dmg for this watch.

- The watch can be activated regardless of charge.

- No longer drains 50% on being activated

- Doesnt reveal in water and when bumped into enemy, but still from dmg.

- Can use ammo packs to extend invis duration while invisible

- Cannot use ammo packs to recharge the watch when not invisible


The new ringer would be more closer to the feign death- strat, as it should be according to desgin.

Its no longer a free flyaway button, since if enemy realized that you faked, he can now easily chase you down, thus requiring you to be more careful, creative and convincing when activating it. From enemy pov, it will be less frustrating to deal with a spy, since he will no longer be able to escape easily from a bad position.

To compensate for the big nerfs. The watch is also made more aligned with the rest of watches by having nearly the same duration. it also has some extra benefits that reward you for successfully fooling the enemy that "killed you" and making it harder to be re-detected by enemies.

Speed boost has been an integral stat of the dead ringer for close to 9 years. With that in mind, just drop the argument of what the weapon should be. It's an escape tool and the only reason people hate it so much is that spy is such a piece of ♥♥♥♥ class that they're so very used to most direct encounters with spy landing them a free kill.

But hey, let's look at your redesign.

"- Speed boost removed entirely"
massive nerf

"- Damage resistances (except fire) after activating removed entirely"
massive nerf, defeats the point of the watch

"- 1.3 Seconds of 100% fire resistance after activating"
I don't see why it should be disproportionately effective against pyro.

"- When deployed: 100% resistance to critical dmg from non melee weapons."
completely irrelevant

"- When dmg exceeds spy's health, he will be left with 1 hp * (not sure about that)"
Having to pick up two health packs is arguably worse than just dying.
This stat isn't nearly as good as you think it is, and all it will do is make newbies reliant on it and perform even worse.

"- The watch starts full, but can be only recharged after a kill or assist (which is 50% per each kill and 15% per each assist). L'etranger and Big Earner do not provide extra cloak on kill or dmg for this watch."
Yet another massive nerf. You'd need to be performing absurdly well in order to make this watch worth it, and that's without your other massive nerfs. That's assuming the stat works, but it can be completely bypassed using other stats.

"- The watch can be activated regardless of charge."
defeats the point of the watch and allows for abuse in conjunction with other stats

"- No longer drains 50% on being activated"
a very big buff that allows for abuse in conjunction with other stats

"- Doesnt reveal in water and when bumped into enemy, but still from dmg."
mostly irrelevant

"- Can use ammo packs to extend invis duration while invisible"
a very big buff that allows for abuse in conjunction with other stats

"- Cannot use ammo packs to recharge the watch when not invisible"
completely irrelevant because of other stats


Alright, so with the new deadringer, I find an ammo pack, I go invisible on command to pick it up because being invisible allows me to do so and now I actually can cloak on command. I won't experience any penalties, and I'll just get some cloak back. I'll see an enemy, cloak on command and decloak on command once it's safe, but I'll make sure to not use 100% of my cloak so I can go invisible again to pick up ammo crates.

You've made stock without cloak regen, but it's disproportionately good against pyros and doesn't pair well with unlocks.



The TF2 community and their balance ideas...

Im just reading this because im bored