VSH Saxton is too powerful, and the Saxton meta is unfun to fight

[MutantVampire]

(READ IN FULL)
Currently, the meta for Saxton in official VSH seems to be:

• Constantly do Brave Jumps, and use the fast fall with every jump to land faster - this allows Saxton to dodge most attacks, stomp mercs, and vastly increase his speed.
  
• Tap the Sweeping Charge instead of charging it up, thus not telegraphing it at all and preventing damage from being dealt during the charge period
  
• In some cases, Saxton disengages from the fight for the first minute or so to pick off all of the mercs who've taken position up high, such as Snipers, Engies, and friendly players

As a merc, this isn't very fun to play against - the largest problem being the constant Brave Jumps. It feels like by constantly jumping, Saxton disengages from any sort of team fight - he ensures that he is only fighting one merc at a time (his present target), preventing others (especially Demoknights) from catching up to him. I find that Saxtons who use this meta almost always dominate, wiping the mercs while only losing maybe 3.5k of their 20k max HP.

However, this might not be an issue exclusively with the meta, but with the incentives given to Saxton to disengage from the horde.
As Saxton, I intentionally avoid abusing the Brave Jump to try and ensure a fair fight for the mercs; nonetheless, I tend to win with 3/4ths of my HP left. Granted, this may be because of my extensive melee experience with the Holy Mackerel, but I also notice that, in retrospect, I nonetheless find myself often instinctively disengaging from the merc horde to pick off stragglers; the extensive knockback dealt by melee classes and airblasters prevents me from engaging the horde head on, so I target those who are diffusing from the crowd - and thus easier to attack.

I hypothesize that this is the major separating factor between Saxtons that can be readily defeated and Saxtons that dominate the Mercs - weaker Saxtons focus on the horde and keep trying to break through, while better Saxtons choose easy targets that have separated from the horde (as well as maybe splitting the crowd with indecision about whether to retreat, stay put, or attack), effectively removing the cooperation benefit that the 40n^2 health formula was expecting.

If Valve is willing to take a shot at attacking this problem through playtesting, I have a few ideas of what might be worth trying - although I doubt these will solve the problem on their own, they might be interesting starting points to analyze and investigate.

• Try disabling the effect where teammates can block melee attacks - would this incentivize Demoknights and other melee users to swarm Hale instead of biding their time? Maybe melee knockback could be reduced to compensate for this massive buff.
  
• Nerfing the Brave Jump seems obvious, but what about nerfing Hale's fastfall? Perhaps if Hale could only fastfall while already falling - that might disincentivize "bouncing" behavior, but could also leave him trapped in the air by knockback.
  
• What about forcing Hale to commit to fastfall by making it so that, once he crouches, he remains locked in fastfall until he lands? This might make fastfall less enticing to Saxtons by removing its utility for making microadjustments to his trajectory - Hale won't be able to simply tap crouch over and over.
  
• What if Saxton could walk through mercs? This is... probably a very bad idea, but I wonder if it would encourage Sax to engage the horde head on.
  
• Maybe airblast knockback could be reduced, or perhaps the airblast stun effect could be trimmed?
  
• What if melee weapons didn't launch Hale so vertically into the air, but instead did mostly horizontal knockback, or perhaps even didn't knock Hale into the air at all - only causing him to slide backwards on the ground? Maybe this would keep Hale more consistently locked in battle.
  
• For Skirmish, try adding windows to the two stairway tunnels so that Mercs can track Hale when he retreats. Perhaps do the same for the roof above the point in Distillery.
  
• The dumbest idea yet: Give Saxton voicelines for a few voice commands often used by players who are goofing around (e.g. "Thanks!", "Spy!", "Yes", "No", and "Dispenser Here"), so that Hale might play more casually and/or stop briefly after certain interactions, as well as letting the Mercs hear where Hale is. This might even shorten Saxton's interactions with friendlies in the middle of rounds (the usual "crouch & stare at friendly for several seconds" might be summarized to "That Spy's a, uhhh, a Spy!"), thus having the additional benefit of making rounds shorter.

I'm open to any other ideas in the comments about how VSH could be adjusted, any other theories on why experienced Saxtons are so strong, further testimonies on your VSH experiences, or constructive criticism of my suggestions.

[Vror]

At least 1-2k VSH / FF2 player here

Originally posted by MutantVampire:

As a merc, this isn't very fun to play against - the largest problem being the constant Brave Jumps. It feels like by constantly jumping, Saxton disengages from any sort of team fight - he ensures that he is only fighting one merc at a time (his present target), preventing others (especially Demoknights) from catching up to him. I find that Saxtons who use this meta almost always dominate, wiping the mercs while only losing maybe 3.5k of their 20k max HP.

While yes, brave jump could have a cooldown and it should help, the main issue is the non cooldown free weightdown

Weightdown makes the boss absolutely unpredictable, you simply can't be anywhere safe, nor punish any of his mistakes because he just pressed control

Detonated a trap on him and sent hale flying? Sorry, he presses CTRL and he's down again

Do you have crits as a soldier and you wanna stop him from flying towards you with a well placed airshot? Sorry, even if you hit he'll just weightdown on you

Combine weightdown with the MASSIVE, ABSOLUTE MASSIVE KNOCKBACK RESISTANCE HE HAS

^ This is a critical issue, He has nearly 100% knockback resistance (At least 80% from my testing), he makes classes that rely on knocking back via damage USELESS (Soldier and Demo, and before someone says "Trolldier", Trolldier should NOT be better than normal Soldier and we both know it)

Knockback resistance should be limited to only a few cases, them being scattergun (Because scout is very fast, and high knockback on it would make him an unreachable machine), minigun (Because 501 DPS), and sentries (because they deal way more knockback than their damage)

It should be ok for a soldier to lift up saxton with a 70 dmg rocket if he hit him directly, saxton is fast, the soldier deserves it, same for the demoman

All other classes should have at least SOME agency if they die to hale or not, at least somewhat being able to hold him just a few seconds away for their team to save them, but with the current knockback resistance he has for EVERYTHING except melee, it's not possible

Originally posted by MutantVampire:

• Try disabling the effect where teammates can block melee attacks - would this incentivize Demoknights and other melee users to swarm Hale instead of biding their time? Maybe melee knockback could be reduced to compensate for this massive buff.
  
• Nerfing the Brave Jump seems obvious, but what about nerfing Hale's fastfall? Perhaps if Hale could only fastfall while already falling - that might disincentivize "bouncing" behavior, but could also leave him trapped in the air by knockback.
  
• What about forcing Hale to commit to fastfall by making it so that, once he crouches, he remains locked in fastfall until he lands? This might make fastfall less enticing to Saxtons by removing its utility for making microadjustments to his trajectory - Hale won't be able to simply tap crouch over and over.
  
• What if Saxton could walk through mercs? This is... probably a very bad idea, but I wonder if it would encourage Sax to engage the horde head on.
  
• Maybe airblast knockback could be reduced, or perhaps the airblast stun effect could be trimmed?
  
• What if melee weapons didn't launch Hale so vertically into the air, but instead did mostly horizontal knockback, or perhaps even didn't knock Hale into the air at all - only causing him to slide backwards on the ground? Maybe this would keep Hale more consistently locked in battle.

1- That should be done in all modes, not just VSH

2- A better way to solve the weightdown spam issue, is by doing the following 2 steps together:
a- Disable weightdown for hale if he tries to use it after a brave jump, enable it again once he touches the floor
b- Disable weightdown for hale if he has the "blast jump" condition (AKA, if an explosive knocked him up in the air, or he gets airshotted by an explosive) until he touches the floor

These 2 changes alongside the rework of the knockback resistance to ranged weapons should instantly make hale feel fun to fight as the classes that are now useless, and also give it a little bit of teamwork to give the others a breathing space by being able to hold hale for a few seconds at least

3- Maybe...

4- Bad idea, bodyblocking should be a thing, and used as a strat

5- VALVe should make it so that if you're airblasted, after 1s of being mid air or you touch the floor you regain your air acceleration (currently if you get airblasted you get a 50% less air acceleration until you touch the floor). This should be done for all gamemodes tbh

6- Sure

[MutantVampire]

@Vror Thanks for the feedback! I do have a few comments, though, particularly when it comes to knockback resist - we seem to disagree here.

Personally, I think that Hale might have too little knockback resistance (especially against melee and airblast), as noted by my personal Saxton anecdote - when Hale is prevented from digging into the horde due to knockback, it incentivizes him to instead find (or create) easier targets - those easier targets being people who have split from the main horde. Knockback does benefit the Mercs if Saxton doesn't switch up his strategy, but my idea is that it makes him switch strategy such that he disengages from the team fights.

In general, I think it's important to think of not what players can do, but what your average Joe will do / what they want to do. Increasing knockback resistance probably wouldn't stop Bouncy/Stagefright Sax from being the meta, but it would stop people from becoming Bouncy/Stagefright Saxes. This was my reasoning for a good amount of the 7 suggestions I made.

Originally posted by Vror:

5- VALVE should make it so that if you're airblasted, after 1s of being mid air or you touch the floor you regain your air acceleration (currently if you get airblasted you get a 50% less air acceleration until you touch the floor). This should be done for all gamemodes tbh

I wasn't thinking that Hale being stunlocked was a problem - he has the Brave Jump for getting out of that; rather, I was thinking that when a Pyro airblasts Hale straight forward, it prevents him from engaging with the horde - so maybe letting him regain traction with the ground a little sooner would make it so Saxton wouldn't get stagefright.

Originally posted by Vror:

4- Bad idea, bodyblocking should be a thing, and used as a strat

I haven't seen that much use of bodyblocking, outside of locking Sax in spawn (something Valve doesn't quite like, hence the temporary damage resistance Sax gets), and locking him in the Skirmish FNAF room with an Uber - so maybe just prevent Saxton from walking through Ubered players? Granted, this still probably isn't a particularly good idea - something about it doesn't taste right - but testing it might give Valve some useful insights. Who knows?


Any thoughts or counterarguments?

[Bob]

It was inevitable.

[MutantVampire]

Originally posted by AimBob:

It was inevitable.

?

[Eighteen-Counts Trevor]

Originally posted by Vror:

At least 1-2k VSH / FF2 player here

Originally posted by MutantVampire:

As a merc, this isn't very fun to play against - the largest problem being the constant Brave Jumps. It feels like by constantly jumping, Saxton disengages from any sort of team fight - he ensures that he is only fighting one merc at a time (his present target), preventing others (especially Demoknights) from catching up to him. I find that Saxtons who use this meta almost always dominate, wiping the mercs while only losing maybe 3.5k of their 20k max HP.

While yes, brave jump could have a cooldown and it should help, the main issue is the non cooldown free weightdown

Weightdown makes the boss absolutely unpredictable, you simply can't be anywhere safe, nor punish any of his mistakes because he just pressed control

Detonated a trap on him and sent hale flying? Sorry, he presses CTRL and he's down again

Do you have crits as a soldier and you wanna stop him from flying towards you with a well placed airshot? Sorry, even if you hit he'll just weightdown on you

Combine weightdown with the MASSIVE, ABSOLUTE MASSIVE KNOCKBACK RESISTANCE HE HAS

^ This is a critical issue, He has nearly 100% knockback resistance (At least 80% from my testing), he makes classes that rely on knocking back via damage USELESS (Soldier and Demo, and before someone says "Trolldier", Trolldier should NOT be better than normal Soldier and we both know it)

Knockback resistance should be limited to only a few cases, them being scattergun (Because scout is very fast, and high knockback on it would make him an unreachable machine), minigun (Because 501 DPS), and sentries (because they deal way more knockback than their damage)

It should be ok for a soldier to lift up saxton with a 70 dmg rocket if he hit him directly, saxton is fast, the soldier deserves it, same for the demoman

All other classes should have at least SOME agency if they die to hale or not, at least somewhat being able to hold him just a few seconds away for their team to save them, but with the current knockback resistance he has for EVERYTHING except melee, it's not possible

Originally posted by MutantVampire:

• Try disabling the effect where teammates can block melee attacks - would this incentivize Demoknights and other melee users to swarm Hale instead of biding their time? Maybe melee knockback could be reduced to compensate for this massive buff.
  
• Nerfing the Brave Jump seems obvious, but what about nerfing Hale's fastfall? Perhaps if Hale could only fastfall while already falling - that might disincentivize "bouncing" behavior, but could also leave him trapped in the air by knockback.
  
• What about forcing Hale to commit to fastfall by making it so that, once he crouches, he remains locked in fastfall until he lands? This might make fastfall less enticing to Saxtons by removing its utility for making microadjustments to his trajectory - Hale won't be able to simply tap crouch over and over.
  
• What if Saxton could walk through mercs? This is... probably a very bad idea, but I wonder if it would encourage Sax to engage the horde head on.
  
• Maybe airblast knockback could be reduced, or perhaps the airblast stun effect could be trimmed?
  
• What if melee weapons didn't launch Hale so vertically into the air, but instead did mostly horizontal knockback, or perhaps even didn't knock Hale into the air at all - only causing him to slide backwards on the ground? Maybe this would keep Hale more consistently locked in battle.

1- That should be done in all modes, not just VSH

2- A better way to solve the weightdown spam issue, is by doing the following 2 steps together:
a- Disable weightdown for hale if he tries to use it after a brave jump, enable it again once he touches the floor
b- Disable weightdown for hale if he has the "blast jump" condition (AKA, if an explosive knocked him up in the air, or he gets airshotted by an explosive) until he touches the floor

These 2 changes alongside the rework of the knockback resistance to ranged weapons should instantly make hale feel fun to fight as the classes that are now useless, and also give it a little bit of teamwork to give the others a breathing space by being able to hold hale for a few seconds at least

3- Maybe...

4- Bad idea, bodyblocking should be a thing, and used as a strat

5- VALVe should make it so that if you're airblasted, after 1s of being mid air or you touch the floor you regain your air acceleration (currently if you get airblasted you get a 50% less air acceleration until you touch the floor). This should be done for all gamemodes tbh

6- Sure

Wait when did they add a Final Fantasy 2 mode to Team Fortress 2?

[Vror]

Originally posted by MutantVampire:

Personally, I think that Hale might have too little knockback resistance (especially against melee and airblast), as noted by my personal Saxton anecdote - when Hale is prevented from digging into the horde due to knockback, it incentivizes him to instead find (or create) easier targets - those easier targets being people who have split from the main horde. Knockback does benefit the Mercs if Saxton doesn't switch up his strategy, but my idea is that it makes him switch strategy such that he disengages from the team fights.

Play soldier/demo, shoot a rocket/pipe at his feet dealing 100 dmg or more, and you'll not even move him up

He has huge knockback resistance, melee has a modification that pushes him more, that doesn't need to change (and could be reduced if you so desire)

This huge Knockback resistance forces everyone to play together, and the only ones who can play away from the group as a roamer is trolldier and spy (Not even scout can because he doesn't have anything to prevent him from being chased down and instantly killed)

We shouldn't "force" people to play in a specific manner, if someone believes they have the skill to hit every single rocket on hale directly, he deserves to stop hale in his tracks, it's as simple as that

If a soldier wants to be a roamer, we should let them, if a scout wants to chase hale and survive thanks to his incredible movement speed AND aiming to push somewhat hale back, he deserves it

Hale should find openings to attack the main group, not have this huge crutch of knockback resistance to brute force their way in (In which most people don't even care because they're gonna go and kill the roamers first)

Originally posted by MutantVampire:

In general, I think it's important to think of not what players can do, but what your average Joe will do / what they want to do. Increasing knockback resistance probably wouldn't stop Bouncy/Stagefright Sax from being the meta, but it would stop people from becoming Bouncy/Stagefright Saxes. This was my reasoning for a good amount of the 7 suggestions I made.

You can buff hale in ways to help him against groups, mainly being just giving him more HP to have more tries, meanwhile removing (or greatly reducing) the knockback resistance so roaming players can actually play the game

"Bouncing hale" will always be meta, no matter what you do, best we can do is giving some player agency to skilled mercs so that their aiming skills actually matter and make them feel good

[Nutpile]

Oh wait people play VSH

[Tsumugi]

Not reading that. You get exactly what you should've expected when you signed up to play one of the worst modes ever added to TF2.

[Spartykins]

hottest take

mode was never balanced and should've stayed in community

[Vror]

Originally posted by Spartykins ❤:

hottest take

mode was never balanced and should've stayed in community

Meh, this could've worked as a casual rotation but, devs made this stuff so unbalanced that it killed all hope of community actually being able to balance something

[UNBREAKABLE]

Originally posted by Vror:

Originally posted by Spartykins ❤:

hottest take

mode was never balanced and should've stayed in community

Meh, this could've worked as a casual rotation but, devs made this stuff so unbalanced that it killed all hope of community actually being able to balance something

community trying to balance anything is a joke because it always leans towards fun and not game logic