Proof that Sniper is NOT Overpowered

[The Impractical Engineer]

The purpose of this thread is to act as a storage of rebuttals to common arguments that sniper is overpowered that can be used for future reference. I expect four types of responses to this thread:

1. Comments telling me how great my post is and how sound my arguments are (the rarest, but also my favourite type of response)

2. A list of nine reasons why my nine reasons are wrong.

3. Random strings of insults and words chucked together.

4. In line with this being the TF2 forums, random stuff that has nothing to do with the thread.

On to the list!

1. Sniper is overpowered because he can kill a class from any range

While sniper can kill from any range, and this is indeed a powerful ability, it's important to remember that the skill required to consistently do so is quite high. The next typical response is to usually say that THEY can consistently do so and I have a skill issue. This could be the case, but in my many years of playing this game, most people CAN'T consistently do so.

2. Sniper is overpowered because his only counter is himself

Firstly, while I concede that sniper is probably the only hard counter to sniper, I challenge the idea that sniper's only counter is himself. There are at least two other classes that I can think of that act in some way against sniper. The first is spy, for the fact he is able to get behind enemy lines and backstab the sniper. If he has a razorback, 2-3 shots from the revolver will be enough to kill him off.

The second is scout for the reason that he his a hard target to hit and can get behind enemy lines like spy, and make quick work of this sniper if he does.

3. Sniper is overpowered because a powerful sniper can lock down a choke point

Any powerful enough class can lock down a choke point. "But Impractical!", you say in earnest, "the difference is that you can counter those other classes, you can't counter the sniper!"

Why? Why can't you counter the sniper? Why can't you switch to sniper and kill the sniper? Oh wait, it's because the sniper is better than you, and that's the problem with this argument. It's essentially "I'm worse than another player, and therefore their class is overpowered".

4. Sniper is overpowered because reaching the sniper is inherently difficult

This argument usually boils down to people saying "how am I supposed to kill the sniper when the sniper is surrounded by his team, AND I can't get there, AND there's a sentry, AND there's a pyro spy checking, AND there's no flank routes, AND the enemy team is well-coordinated, AND my team can't push through, AND I can't snipe the sniper, AND no one else can sniper the sniper, AND everything that can go wrong is going wrong". . . you get the point.

It's a list of circumstances that quite literally can be answered with "skill issue". The non-16 year old response is this: if your team sucks and you suck, why do you think that shows sniper is overpowered? The answer: it doesn't.

This is not to say these circumstances don't exist or are rare; a sentry and pyro pair is quite common. However, at that point your biggest problem is probably the sentry, which will likely require an uber anyway.

5. Bots always use sniper, confirming the fact sniper is OP

This is probably the dumbest argument, but I'll include it for the sake of completion; we shouldn't be balancing the game around cheaters.

6. Highlander games are often decided by sniper

This is true, but it's misleading. Yes, an analysis of highlander games shows that most of them are decided by the sniper, however, this fails to consider that:

• Casual games are 12v12, highlander is 9v9.
  
• Highlander games are often played in a competition or for a prize.
  
• People in highlander games are much more coordinated.
  
• People in casual aren't usually trying that hard (if at all).
  
• You don't have one of each class in casual (usually).

In comp, it's quite common for teams to camp either side and wait for their sniper to get a pick before pushing because there's an actual consequence of losing the match, unlike in casual where everyone just charges like a bunch of barbarians.

The conclusion is that highlander games are not reflective of casual games.

7. There is no actual way to counter a sniper down a sightline

This argument is different from the existence of counters to sniper, in that if you're going down the sight line there's very little you can do against the sniper.

Except you can. The obvious thing to do is to not go down the sightline to begin with. However, this might not be an option. Strafing and jumping can make you a very hard target to hit, and the closer you are to the sniper, the better chance you have of hitting him and the lesser chance he has of hitting you.

Indeed, this does depend on map design to an extent, as some maps are particularity favourable to snipers, but others aren't.

8. Playing against sniper isn't fun

Putting aside the subjectivity of this argument, what is fun is not necessarily what is fair. I don't enjoy dying in games, but it's a consequence of my actions. I don't enjoy having a soldier peak around the corner and annihilate my sentry nest, it's not fun, but it is fair.

9. There's no way to know where a sniper is aiming

There's no way to know if a demo has sticky traps around a corner, there's no way to know if there's a spy in the vicinity without spy checking every single crevice, there's no way of knowing a lot of things.

Surprise is an element in TF2, whether good or bad, and it must be taken into consideration. The example I often hear is of a poor medic with full ubercharge rounding the corner and getting headshotted; if you have full ubercharge, you need to accept the risk that if you might go around that corner and die.

Look at the killfeed, look for the sniper laser dots. In an extreme case, switch to the vaccinator if the sniper is particularly problematic; the point is, there's solutions to this.

[Mitch Rocks]

Baby.

[Watereaters]

How about this argument? A really good Sniper can deal 150 damage at any range in 0.2 seconds (less time than most people can react) including close range, which isn't what the original devs wanted. This effectively gives him a TTK of 0.2 seconds against light classes and a TTK of 1.7 seconds against Soldiers and Demomen, and a TTK of 1.9 second against Heavies at medium range.

He doesn't need any setup to be extremely powerful and difficult to counter, whereas Engi has to set up his buildings without them being destroyed, Spy has to get behind enemy lines without any way to fight back and find an opportunity to strike, and Demo has to place his stickies and know how to hide them from Pyros and anyone rushing the chokepoint so they don't run away. Sniper can just immediately run in and get a kill in less than half a second before anyone on the enemy team even registered his presence.

[Scover]

What about Shounic's video where he removes the sniper class and the game become more enjoyable as a result

[The Impractical Engineer]

Originally posted by Watereaters:

How about this argument? A really good Sniper can deal 150 damage at any range in 0.2 seconds (less time than most people can react) including close range, which isn't what the original devs wanted. This effectively gives him a TTK of 0.2 seconds against light classes and a TTK of 1.7 seconds against Soldiers and Demomen, and a TTK of 1.9 second against Heavies at medium range.

This is basically hit by points 1, 3, 7, and 9.

I’ll briefly comment on the reaction time thing since you brought it up. They keywords are “a really good sniper”. This is not all snipers, not the gibus install, and, most importantly, not the average sniper.

He doesn't need any setup to be extremely powerful and difficult to counter, whereas Engi has to set up his buildings without them being destroyed,

Engineer and sniper both have area denial, but in general, a sentry is a much more powerful area denial then a sniper as it doesn’t miss.

Spy has to get behind enemy lines without any way to fight back and find an opportunity to strike,

To get behind enemy lines you have to a) not bump into enemy team, b) not get seen. Neither of those things are hard to do.

and Demo has to place his stickies and know how to hide them from Pyros and anyone rushing the chokepoint so they don't run away.

If a demo hides them behind an entrance, there’s no way for the pyro to know they’re there, other than seeing the demo.

Sniper can just immediately run in and get a kill in less than half a second before anyone on the enemy team even registered his presence.

Big emphasis on the word can, no?

[The Impractical Engineer]

Originally posted by Scover:

What about Shounic's video where he removes the sniper class and the game become more enjoyable as a result

This is the equivalent of saying “the sniper haters surveyed themselves and found that not having sniper in the game is more enjoyable! Yippee!”

[Galaxander]

Sniper is not overpowered, and sniper should absolutely be nerfed.

[The Impractical Engineer]

Originally posted by Galaxander:

Sniper is not overpowered, and sniper should absolutely be nerfed.

Breathtaking.

Insightful response. This changed my mind.

[Watereaters]

Originally posted by The Impractical Engineer:

snip

Oh sure, 1/3 games isn't much.

And if you have watched the Gravel Pit Development Commentary, you would have seen Charlie Brown's words on the Sniper, where they added charge so an experienced Sniper can't flickshot to the point where he may as well headshot while unscoped. Then later a headshot delay was added since charge wasn't enough.

Unlike the Sentry, Sniper benefits from damage falloff, has infinite range, and is mobile.

Spy still has to decloak to attack, and that's made even harder with decloak sound and spawn wallhacks and people occasionally turning around.

While there are situations where you get killed by a sticky trap and can't do anything about it, he has to reset the trap afterwards (which can be made harder if you all decide to rush him) and is more limited on where he can set a trap.

I don't see how the emphasis is relevant, he shouldn't be able to run in and immediately kill most classes without setup or random crits.

And here's another argument, how come when it comes to good map design, Sniper is nerfed while the other combat oriented classes (and Engi) are empowered?

[Galaxander]

Originally posted by The Impractical Engineer:

Originally posted by Galaxander:

Sniper is not overpowered, and sniper should absolutely be nerfed.

Breathtaking.

Insightful response. This changed my mind.

Changed your mind about what? I agreed with you, did I not?

[Bean Box]

Originally posted by Watereaters:

How about this argument? A really good Sniper can deal 150 damage at any range in 0.2 seconds (less time than most people can react) including close range, which isn't what the original devs wanted. This effectively gives him a TTK of 0.2 seconds against light classes and a TTK of 1.7 seconds against Soldiers and Demomen, and a TTK of 1.9 second against Heavies at medium range.

doesn't the sniper have also need to react?

[Hank Hill]

Originally posted by The Impractical Engineer:

The purpose of this thread is to act as a storage of rebuttals to common arguments that sniper is overpowered that can be used for future reference. I expect four types of responses to this thread:

1. Comments telling me how great my post is and how sound my arguments are (the rarest, but also my favourite type of response)

2. A list of nine reasons why my nine reasons are wrong.

3. Random strings of insults and words chucked together.

4. In line with this being the TF2 forums, random stuff that has nothing to do with the thread.

On to the list!

1. Sniper is overpowered because he can kill a class from any range

While sniper can kill from any range, and this is indeed a powerful ability, it's important to remember that the skill required to consistently do so is quite high. The next typical response is to usually say that THEY can consistently do so and I have a skill issue. This could be the case, but in my many years of playing this game, most people CAN'T consistently do so.

2. Sniper is overpowered because his only counter is himself

Firstly, while I concede that sniper is probably the only hard counter to sniper, I challenge the idea that sniper's only counter is himself. There are at least two other classes that I can think of that act in some way against sniper. The first is spy, for the fact he is able to get behind enemy lines and backstab the sniper. If he has a razorback, 2-3 shots from the revolver will be enough to kill him off.

The second is scout for the reason that he his a hard target to hit and can get behind enemy lines like spy, and make quick work of this sniper if he does.

3. Sniper is overpowered because a powerful sniper can lock down a choke point

Any powerful enough class can lock down a choke point. "But Impractical!", you say in earnest, "the difference is that you can counter those other classes, you can't counter the sniper!"

Why? Why can't you counter the sniper? Why can't you switch to sniper and kill the sniper? Oh wait, it's because the sniper is better than you, and that's the problem with this argument. It's essentially "I'm worse than another player, and therefore their class is overpowered".

4. Sniper is overpowered because reaching the sniper is inherently difficult

This argument usually boils down to people saying "how am I supposed to kill the sniper when the sniper is surrounded by his team, AND I can't get there, AND there's a sentry, AND there's a pyro spy checking, AND there's no flank routes, AND the enemy team is well-coordinated, AND my team can't push through, AND I can't snipe the sniper, AND no one else can sniper the sniper, AND everything that can go wrong is going wrong". . . you get the point.

It's a list of circumstances that quite literally can be answered with "skill issue". The non-16 year old response is this: if your team sucks and you suck, why do you think that shows sniper is overpowered? The answer: it doesn't.

This is not to say these circumstances don't exist or are rare; a sentry and pyro pair is quite common. However, at that point your biggest problem is probably the sentry, which will likely require an uber anyway.

5. Bots always use sniper, confirming the fact sniper is OP

This is probably the dumbest argument, but I'll include it for the sake of completion; we shouldn't be balancing the game around cheaters.

6. Highlander games are often decided by sniper

This is true, but it's misleading. Yes, an analysis of highlander games shows that most of them are decided by the sniper, however, this fails to consider that:

• Casual games are 12v12, highlander is 9v9.
  
• Highlander games are often played in a competition or for a prize.
  
• People in highlander games are much more coordinated.
  
• People in casual aren't usually trying that hard (if at all).
  
• You don't have one of each class in casual (usually).

In comp, it's quite common for teams to camp either side and wait for their sniper to get a pick before pushing because there's an actual consequence of losing the match, unlike in casual where everyone just charges like a bunch of barbarians.

The conclusion is that highlander games are not reflective of casual games.

7. There is no actual way to counter a sniper down a sightline

This argument is different from the existence of counters to sniper, in that if you're going down the sight line there's very little you can do against the sniper.

Except you can. The obvious thing to do is to not go down the sightline to begin with. However, this might not be an option. Strafing and jumping can make you a very hard target to hit, and the closer you are to the sniper, the better chance you have of hitting him and the lesser chance he has of hitting you.

Indeed, this does depend on map design to an extent, as some maps are particularity favourable to snipers, but others aren't.

8. Playing against sniper isn't fun

Putting aside the subjectivity of this argument, what is fun is not necessarily what is fair. I don't enjoy dying in games, but it's a consequence of my actions. I don't enjoy having a soldier peak around the corner and annihilate my sentry nest, it's not fun, but it is fair.

9. There's no way to know where a sniper is aiming

There's no way to know if a demo has sticky traps around a corner, there's no way to know if there's a spy in the vicinity without spy checking every single crevice, there's no way of knowing a lot of things.

Surprise is an element in TF2, whether good or bad, and it must be taken into consideration. The example I often hear is of a poor medic with full ubercharge rounding the corner and getting headshotted; if you have full ubercharge, you need to accept the risk that if you might go around that corner and die.

Look at the killfeed, look for the sniper laser dots. In an extreme case, switch to the vaccinator if the sniper is particularly problematic; the point is, there's solutions to this.

skill doesn't balance the ability to instantly kill anyone halfway across the map. e shuts down every encounter without a chance to react. no other class can effectively be invincible if they are better than you. scout can be killed by engineer. soldier can be stopped by pyro (or if you're on payload the short circuit) pyro can be countered by heavy. demoman is countered by scout, heavy is countered by spy, engineer is countered by both demoman and soldier, medic is countered by everyone, spy can be massacred by pyro. so why should sniper be only countered by sniper and have unlocks negate spy a class so weak that the sniper barely even needs those unlocks to fight against him.

[M1 Gaming #GiveMeTheTF2]

"He is effective at long range, but weakens with proximity, where he is forced to use his Submachine Gun or his Kukri. As a result, the Sniper tends to perch on higher grounds or in hard-to-see places, where he can easily pin down enemies at chokepoints."

[Wiener Hole Paper Cut]

I'm ok at sniper. Not my most played by any means, but I'm ok. But I know that I can still do a lot of damage with minimal effort and with significantly less risk than any other class.

[Watereaters]

Originally posted by Bean Box:

Originally posted by Watereaters:

How about this argument? A really good Sniper can deal 150 damage at any range in 0.2 seconds (less time than most people can react) including close range, which isn't what the original devs wanted. This effectively gives him a TTK of 0.2 seconds against light classes and a TTK of 1.7 seconds against Soldiers and Demomen, and a TTK of 1.9 second against Heavies at medium range.

doesn't the sniper have also need to react?

Yeah but if you take into account latency, his distance from the enemy and most classes having weapon which aren't effective at long range, hardly everyone will fight at 100% health or have travel time, it does become over powered, if you want the actual realistic TTK just add on 0.25 seconds. At best against a 'pro' Sniper who saw you at the same time you caught him you can manage a 1f1 as Soldier or Demo assuming the blast damage/bullet taken in to get to him didn't put you under 150 health.

Originally posted by M1 Gaming #GiveMeTheTF2:

"He is effective at long range, but weakens with proximity, where he is forced to use his Submachine Gun or his Kukri. As a result, the Sniper tends to perch on higher grounds or in hard-to-see places, where he can easily pin down enemies at chokepoints."

That's what its meant to be until you realise they didn't balance the rifle correctly and it can still flickshot enemies at close range.

[minniefinnie]

fun fact removing sniper dosent actually change the core game play experience lol