Why Does TF2 Comp. Have to be 6v6?

[SCREAM IF YOU LOVE BALATRO]

I really don't understand why TF2 competitive has to be built on a 6v6 basis. If you think about it, TF2 is mostly built around full teams of 10-12 players fighting each other over relatively large maps. 6v6 seems to be handicapping a lot of the draws of the game.

It seems to me the reason that it's in a 6v6 format is that most, if not every other, game with an active competitive scene has a 6v6 or 5v5 format. But that's because these games are built around this concept both casually and competitvely. Just look DOTA2 and CS:GO.

CS:GO has a casual with large player counts, but at it's core it's made for small teams going against eachother. Everyone plays the same character and it's your personal skill and loadout that change to match your team and the enemies. It works here.

DOTA 2 was built on the concept of 5v5 with a large cast of varied heroes. The game is mechanically built on the 5v5 format, and with such a large cast of characters, you can balance the game in such a way that multiple different compositions can work. It works here.

TF2 was built around teams of 12 players fighting in close-quarters choas on large maps with confining spaces and objectives that involve a lot of movement. Limiting the game to 6v6 seems to take away a lot of the purpose of TF2, and limit the options people have to play.

TF2 wasn't built for 6v6. And changing TF2 to fit 6v6 cause it seems to be the "industry norm" hurts the main casual community, and the aspiring competitive. If they really want TF2 to stand out, they should embrace it's original design. Balance it around large teams for competitive. People who played and never played the game would come to see the new competitive meta breaker, where massive teams fight each other for spectacle. It's how the game was designed to be played.

If anyone has comments or answers why it has to be 6v6, please post them. I'm hoping to start a conversation about this.

[PL@YER]

Because it's less chaotic and more streamlined.

[Mossy Snake]

12v12 and 9v9 are also popular formats, but 6's forces careful class comp and is more streamlined (And it's less taxing on people with crap PCs, making it arguably more accessible)

[Pakaku]

Because the community spent ten years experimenting with different formats, and 6v6 was the most efficient version.

TF2 was built for 12v12 but it also was built for a casual experience, not competitive.

[[e-mail]]

Queueing up with 12 people is easier than 18.
Forming a team and sending them placed is less expensive in a team of 12 than 18.
Spectating and shoutcasting a game is easier with 12 than 18.
Players shine out more in a team of 12 than 18.

[SCREAM IF YOU LOVE BALATRO]

Originally posted by PL@YER:

Because it's less chaotic and more streamlined.

Originally posted by MossyRathalos:

12v12 and 9v9 are also popular formats, but 6's forces careful class comp and is more streamlined (And it's less taxing on people with crap PCs, making it arguably more accessible)

To me at least, TF2's comp is failing to get off the ground because the meta is stale and the 6v6 setting is the official supported competitive. In the end, the best way to draw an audiance is bring something new. It makes sense to me that by introducing a 12v12 competitive as the main competitive, would draw a lot of people, and make the game standout.

I understand they've spent years experimenting, but overall when a game hits a point of stagnant Meta, something big needs to change.

[trash]

Originally posted by Tanner:

It's how the game was designed to be played.

'the way it was designed' is a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that lowers individual player skill and promotes broken team comps that ruin the game and make it unplayable in a competitive setting

it's also unsupportable on a large scale due to the sheer number of players

6v6 with class limits offers the most class variety, highest skill ceiling, and the most engaging and fun competitive gameplay
without those limitations, you get mandatory-to-win class stacking or fulltime use on slowdown classes that ruin the gameplay

[Deadmeat0]

because they haven't added anything like highlander yet
i wish they would tbh

[SCREAM IF YOU LOVE BALATRO]

Originally posted by 0.4 hours past 2 weeks:

Originally posted by Tanner:

It's how the game was designed to be played.

'the way it was designed' is a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that lowers individual player skill and promotes broken team comps that ruin the game and make it unplayable in a competitive setting

it's also unsupportable on a large scale due to the sheer number of players

6v6 with class limits offers the most class variety, highest skill ceiling, and the most engaging and fun competitive gameplay
without those limitations, you get mandatory-to-win class stacking or fulltime use on slowdown classes that ruin the gameplay

Isn't that where the current comp is? Almost everygame seems to be the same 2 soldiers, 2 scouts a medic and whatever the 6th guy feels like, mostly demo. The only time they seem to change is when they need to stall a final push with pyros or engineers. These are just my experiences, but I know others feel the same.

At a certain point, when does skill become mechanic reliance? A scout can jump and kill a heavy who mechanically, no matter how skilled the heavy is, can't kill him due to the way he works. Half a team changing to pyros and engis to stall a final point can't be beat because mechanically a team of 6 can't form a comp to counter it. Skill gives way to mechanics in 6v6, which, at it's base form, gives way to luck. Someone dies by mistake, and the mistake is punished. But the punishment stops cause someone else gets lucky and kills someone else. It reverses.

[flowerboypunchy]

Do you have any better ideas for a format?

[trash]

Originally posted by Tanner:

To me at least, TF2's comp is failing to get off the ground because the meta is stale and the 6v6 setting is the official supported competitive.

and you're flat out wrong lmao
what's stale is people thinking fulltime heavy makes for a good competitive experience

In the end, the best way to draw an audiance is bring something new. It makes sense to me that by introducing a 12v12 competitive as the main competitive, would draw a lot of people, and make the game standout.

you might as well have competitive mario party
12v12 and even 9v9 is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke
it will never be marketable as a competitive expeirence because anybody slightly decent at the game would quit within a week if they aren't being paid large sums of money to hang around such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

I understand they've spent years experimenting, but overall when a game hits a point of stagnant Meta, something big needs to change.

it's not going to
outside of pyro maybe becoming viable for replacing a pocket soldier, there's never going to be a massive shakeup
the game is incapable of supporting a diverse 'meta' because there's only 4 generalists and 5 specialists who see situational use

[trash]

Originally posted by Tanner:

Isn't that where the current comp is? Almost everygame seems to be the same 2 soldiers, 2 scouts a medic and whatever the 6th guy feels like, mostly demo. The only time they seem to change is when they need to stall a final push with pyros or engineers.

that's how the game works
the other classes are situational and were outright designed to be that way
in order to make them viable for fulltime use [which is a bad thing when 3 of them do nothing but slow the game down and lower skill], you would need to make them hilariously overpowered or remove what makes them unique

[Mossy Snake]

Originally posted by 0.4 hours past 2 weeks:

Originally posted by Tanner:

To me at least, TF2's comp is failing to get off the ground because the meta is stale and the 6v6 setting is the official supported competitive.

and you're flat out wrong lmao
what's stale is people thinking fulltime heavy makes for a good competitive experience

In the end, the best way to draw an audiance is bring something new. It makes sense to me that by introducing a 12v12 competitive as the main competitive, would draw a lot of people, and make the game standout.

you might as well have competitive mario party
12v12 and even 9v9 is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke
it will never be marketable as a competitive expeirence because anybody slightly decent at the game would quit within a week if they aren't being paid large sums of money to hang around such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

I understand they've spent years experimenting, but overall when a game hits a point of stagnant Meta, something big needs to change.

it's not going to
outside of pyro maybe becoming viable for replacing a pocket soldier, there's never going to be a massive shakeup
the game is incapable of supporting a diverse 'meta' because there's only 4 generalists and 5 specialists who see situational use

Sniper is pretty popular in 6's, but only if said Sniper is good.

Right now the meta is:

2 Scouts 1-2 Soldiers 1 Medic 1 Demo and a Sniper if there is only 1 Soldier.

The other classes are either too gimmicky/need to set up (Spy, Engineer) or useless and UP (Heavy, Pyro)

[trash]

Originally posted by MossyRathalos:

The other classes are either too gimmicky/need to set up (Spy, Engineer) or useless and UP (Heavy, Pyro)

heavy isn't underpowered
the format just keeps him [intentionally depending on who you ask] from being viable in the context of the meta

when he does see use, he's scary as ♥♥♥♥ both in how he can shut down mobility and hold postions, and how he makes you hate playing the game the second one shows up

[SCREAM IF YOU LOVE BALATRO]

Originally posted by MossyRathalos:

Originally posted by 0.4 hours past 2 weeks:

and you're flat out wrong lmao
what's stale is people thinking fulltime heavy makes for a good competitive experience


you might as well have competitive mario party
12v12 and even 9v9 is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke
it will never be marketable as a competitive expeirence because anybody slightly decent at the game would quit within a week if they aren't being paid large sums of money to hang around such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥


it's not going to
outside of pyro maybe becoming viable for replacing a pocket soldier, there's never going to be a massive shakeup
the game is incapable of supporting a diverse 'meta' because there's only 4 generalists and 5 specialists who see situational use

Sniper is pretty popular in 6's, but only if said Sniper is good.

Right now the meta is:

2 Scouts 1-2 Soldiers 1 Medic 1 Demo and a Sniper if there is only 1 Soldier.

The other classes are either too gimmicky/need to set up (Spy, Engineer) or useless and UP (Heavy, Pyro)

That's why I think 6's is bad for TF2. A majority of the classes are gimmicks in situations and need a specific opportunity. A competitive scene where only 4,5, maybe 6 of the classes available are highlighted seems bad to the health of a game. If someone learns about a game through watching comp, then decides to play it and goes to the class screen and sees 4 other characters they didn't even know existed cause no one played them. It's bad. The main purpose of Competitve events is to draw larger player bases and earn money through them.

[Mossy Snake]

Originally posted by Tanner:

Originally posted by MossyRathalos:

Sniper is pretty popular in 6's, but only if said Sniper is good.

Right now the meta is:

2 Scouts 1-2 Soldiers 1 Medic 1 Demo and a Sniper if there is only 1 Soldier.

The other classes are either too gimmicky/need to set up (Spy, Engineer) or useless and UP (Heavy, Pyro)

That's why I think 6's is bad for TF2. A majority of the classes are gimmicks in situations and need a specific opportunity. A competitive scene where only 4,5, maybe 6 of the classes available are highlighted seems bad to the health of a game. If someone learns about a game through watching comp, then decides to play it and goes to the class screen and sees 4 other characters they didn't even know existed cause no one played them. It's bad. The main purpose of Competitve events is to draw larger player bases and earn money through them.

If you up the count from 6 players per team, people will inevitably stack Soldier/Demo/Sniper/Heavy rather than pick any other class. The number of players doesn't matter, the class balancing does.