The Vita-saw needs a rework. (it's garbage)

[official plant gang member]

Before I start, this is my first time writing something like this, but I hope I can make a good point.

The Vita-saw used to be garbage in causal and Gabens gift to medics in competitive, but in this discussion, I want to point out the new Vita-saw (as of Jungle Inferno) is a shadow of its former glory.

Firstly, the Vita-saw was bad in causal because exchanging 25% UBER and 10 extra health on hit for 20% on respawn and 20% faster swing speed wasn’t partially good in causal because, 1. the swing speed bonus compared to the ubersaw is barley noticeable, for the same reason it is not comparable to the stock bone saw. 2. As a medic in causal you’re not always protected so 8 seconds less time building UBER (16 seconds at slowest rate) isn't match changing, however full uber in less than 4 seconds by ubersaw build is game changing (though this unrealistic even getting 1 hit can cut off 10 seconds (20 at slowest rate) of UBER building) 3. Though not much 10 extra health can save you for afterburn or bleeding.

Secondly, the Vita-saw was godly in competitive because 1. you are protected with your teammate’s lives, they will die for you as you are the most important person on the team, so those 8 seconds can make or break a game. 2. Due to the 8 second difference the enemy medic HAD to use the Vita-saw as well or they are at a significant disadvantage similarly to a sniper having to use the old danger shield to counter another sniper using the old danger shield (this is why it was banned in almost all competitive leagues).

Thirdly, the Vita-saw we have now is just a worse ubersaw because 1. the Vita-saw's down-side is a lot worse than the ubersaw's; -10 health is a lot worse than -20% swing speed because the Vita-saw's downside is passive so even you are not engaging in combat you have 10 less health but the ubersaw downside is only active when you are using it. 2. the upside on the Vita-saw is worse than the ubersaw; +15% UBER per hit on respawn, capping at 60% is a lot worse than +25% UBER on hit, since the UBER from the Vita-saw requires you to die, while the ubersaws UBER can be used instantly, for example your pushing on badwater basin, last point and you’re on 80% UBER and you catch a spy as he backstabs someone, and you kill him with the ubersaw now you have full uber and can push instantly but with the vita saw 8 more seconds of charging is required and you only get the Vita-saw benefit if your push fails and you die. 3. the ONLY thing the Vita-saw have over the ubersaw is that you can swing it at an enemy in situation when you’re about to die and potentially get some UBER on respawn, but even then if you high UBER with the ubersaw then you could have " popped it , not dropped it ".

So now I have shown you why it needed a rework here is my idea of it rework.

-on hit: gain an organ
-for each organ gained -5 health
-on respawn up to 4 organs consumed and for each organ consumed +15% uber.
- -10% swing speed

This will make the Vita-saw not have a passive downside and since it swings faster it might actually stand up to the ubersaw in use.

Comment if you want to discuss this rework and thank for reading :) (I know it's pretty long).

If you enjoyed this discussion, please consider joining my steam group: Molten’s ocosiation of medic mai (please ignore the errors in the name).

[C. Taunts]

The organ collecting was added to replace the rng mechanic in pre Jungle inferno vitasaw.

I think it was a good move because enemy medics can get a more accurate uber reserved after the medic was dropped

[official plant gang member]

Yes that is true and they did need to do it, but the way they implimented it just made it a worse uber-saw.

[eMercody]

So you spawn with an ever so slightly worse bone saw, by hitting people with it you gain ubercharge on respawn but as you collect more you lose survivability making it quite risky if you are needed for an important play. Interesting, I see kamikaze ubers becoming a thing.

[C7#9b13]

I think its okay now
I'd personally pair it with the kritzkrieg, since i'm not protected when kritz ubered.
Its a safety net.

If i was to reduce my own health by gaining organs, thus putting me at a possible death easier than if i used ubersaw, that would imo deter me from using ur vita saw.
Basically, i put myself at higher risk lose more uber, in gain for less uber.
Now, (as of JI), its i could save some uber that i lost, if i died

[C7#9b13]

But OK, i can see how this would encourage this sort of play:

I got 4 stabs with the new vita saw, then ubered into the point.
After which, i die on purpose and i have 60% uber already.

... Can place my finger on wheter it's op, or... Weird
What do you think bout the mentioned strat?

Also, i'd be okay with the stats, if you added a -5 health penalty (idk? Some sort of debuff), or do less damage? Idk.
10% swing speed aint much.

[C. Taunts]

Originally posted by Molten the medic main:

Yes that is true and they did need to do it, but the way they implimented it just made it a worse uber-saw.

It's better than being a complete upgrade.

[Hell-met]

trash the damn thing. Its concept will never work.

Valve gotta stop trying to reward people for dying or failing.

[C7#9b13]

Originally posted by Hell-met:

trash the damn thing. Its concept will never work.

Valve gotta stop trying to reward people for dying or failing.

The current version of the weapon is okay.
It does reward you for dying, mind you, but i think in a more fairer way than before JI. Its a safety net now.
I'd say its viable and okay now

[A birbday Aya]

The organ collecting thing just seems like a death wish tbh. I still like my idea of being able to spend uber to perform a dodge maneuver similarly to what can be seen in Unreal Tournament 2004 or Shadow Warrior 2.

[Uscari]

The organ system is dumb on the Vitasaw, encouraging the medic of all classes to die doesen't make sense. Your proposed change only slightly buffs the weapon but doesen't address any of the core issues you talked about.

25% immediate uber > 15% posthumous uber. It's that simple.

Ubersaw needs a nerf, and Vitasaw should be the opposite of what it is now. It should be a weapon designed to increase survivability at the cost of uber, as opposed to increase uber at the cost of survivability.

Maybe 10% slower uber build rate but 50% resistance to critical hits while active. Finally medic has a counter measure to sniper and kritz without resorting to vacc.

[banana]

"it encourages medics to die" what a complete ret*ard could say it? It protects your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ uber after death to help you counter incoming enemies.

Ubersaw is better but only because it doesn't has any real downside.

"Oh I got an organ, gotta press my kill bind !" truelly an intelectual person

[C7#9b13]

I think that the option to have a "blink" ability at the cost of ubercharge (while saw is deployed) would be okay...ish?

[A birbday Aya]

Originally posted by Crathro:

I think that the option to have a "blink" ability at the cost of ubercharge (while saw is deployed) would be okay...ish?

Maybe not a blink exactly, but like a side/forward/backstep where you take reduced damage for a half-second and in that same half-second, you move as fast as a charging demoknight in a fixed direction

[C7#9b13]

Originally posted by Aya Shameimaru:

Originally posted by Crathro:

I think that the option to have a "blink" ability at the cost of ubercharge (while saw is deployed) would be okay...ish?

Maybe not a blink exactly, but like a side/forward/backstep where you take reduced damage for a half-second and in that same half-second, you move as fast as a charging demoknight in a fixed direction

Yeah
Really could make the medic think: either to pop now to save yourself, or vita-saw outta there and pop a latter rush, but you could potentially die anyways?

[twunny phaiv]

It's as good as it will ever be. It's outshone in Casual due to random crits allowing Medic to survive 60% of 1v1s, but it's fine in Comp.

Just as a whole, allowing Medic to retain Uber on death is kind of an iffy concept, but at least it's not broken.