The real problem with pyro

[i killed god]

This is in my opinion the worst offender when it comes to the things that are wrong with pyro (and there's plenty of them). TF2 was built from the ground up as a skill-heavy game, where a quarter inch flick makes the difference between that sweet 100 damage meatshot and that complete miss. Most of the weapons in the game are burst damage instead of stream damage, and the few that are stream damage are mostly irrelevant and weak compared to the burst damage ones, usually used as finishers.

This means that the burst damage weapons (rocket launcher, shotguns of all sorts, grenade launcher etc) are in general much more skill-demanding than stream damage weapons (pistol, SMG, syringe gun) and are in general much more rewarding to learn to use properly. There are two glaring exceptions to this rule:

First exception is the minigun, which is balanced by the fact that it slows down the class using it to a crawl when spun up, is only really effective in the close-mid range as it loses a lot of accuracy and damage at longer ranges, it's attached to the class with the LOWEST mobility in the game with the biggest hitbox, and there is a spin up time to using it which means you have to commit to using this weapon before deploying it, not to mention that you can hear the sound of it being spun up (cept for Tomislav). The weapon also requires a certain amount of aim, especially at extremely close ranges where scouts can just run around you (unless you're using the Natascha, in which case go burn in the hottest of fires).

The second exception is the flamethrower. And boy oh boy, is this weapon horribly designed for a game like TF2. Not only is the new particle system completely pants on ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ guaranteeing full damage for EACH particle that hits you (with a cap), which means that getting so much as sweeped by this weapon means that you're guaranteed to take a load of damage (because of the way particles work), this weapon also has a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ range which extends almost all the way to the mid-range, requires NO RELOADING, is attached to a relatively quick moving class, requires no commitment or aim in general to operate with just random mouse movement in the direction of your enemy and holding down M1 being enough to hit them, is an AREA OF EFFECT weapon, has the ability to reflect projectiles (probably the only thing that requires any kind of skill in the weapon), and worst of all, APPLIES DAMAGE OVER TIME. What this essentially means is running into a pyro in any form of close quarters combat on just about any class means you're GUARANTEED to take damage, regardless of the skill level of the player in front of you, if they're just able to flail their mouse around and catch you with a flame particle. This is in and of itself a problem in a "skill-based" game since it literally makes you, the victim, completely powerless in the face of this weapon and there is no amount of movement mastery or personal skill that will consistently manage to outsmart a pyro's flamethrower (again, regardless of the pyro's skill level). If you have a medic nearby, this isn't necessarily a huge issue since you can soak the damage up; however, if you happen to be misfortunate enough to be roaming/be left without a medic, an encounter with a pyro will more than likely mean you'll have to go dig around for a medkit somewhere.

Against just about any other class in the game, if you're able to keep your movement in check and aim on point, you can manage to escape while taking minimal/no damage (especially on classes like scout). But against the pyro, the fact that the class GUARANTEES damage if you're within a certain radius is absolutely dumb and does not belong in a game like this.

Please don't bring up any of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ "arguments" in defense of the flamethrower I always read on here "oh but it only has 50 DPS" "oh but it's not competitively viable". For the record, the flamethrower has a DPS of 93-173 (depending on proximity to flames, usually averaging about 130 DPS). The fact that this weapon requires so little skill to operate paired with the DPS potential is completely dumb.

tl;dr flamethrower guarantees too much damage (AND damage over time) in a wide area and requires no skill to use, and is therefore broken and does not belong in TF2

[i killed god]

Messaggio originale di Shrimpelous:

This thread is waste





Because they are not going to fix the pyro

Your life is a waste because you'll die one day, and in a few billion years, this planet won't exist anymore and nothing you ever did or will ever do will matter. What's your point?

[Uscari]

@Daddy the first part of your post is adhominem nonsense, so I'll address this part:


"Weren't you the guy that made a thread in defense of the way pyro currently functions and got roasted for like 30 pages? You still never responded to any of my comments on that thread, btw.

Also, almost any class in the game requires more positioning and situational awareness than pyro does."

1. Yeah I was, and I proudly defend his core design, but you shouldn't confuse his core design with how he currently functions. There are a lot of things about him I disagree with currently.

2. Getting roasted for 30 pages? Careful your bias is showing. It's called a discussion, that's the point of this forum.

3. I didn't address your thoughts because they were basically already addressed earlier in the thread towards other people.

4. Wrong. As a class with the most limited range and mobility, Pyro is right next to heavy as the top class requiring positioning and situational awareness.

@MossyRathalos

1. Like I said earlier, aim is not the only skill that requires effort. Also you clearly aren't reading my posts. I said pyro requires the other skills more than the other classes. All classes require different amounts of each skill type.

For example, Sniper takes a lot of aim, but hardly any positioning. Meanwhile engineer requires no aim but a great deal of gamesense.

Pyro doesen't require much aim at all, but needs a mixture of positioning, gamesense, prediction, and timing.

2. Jetpack is not fine. It ruins the class, because it takes away the skill I'm talking about. I agree with you parkinsons needs to go. That's straight up unfair.

3. Class spirit is an important part of game balance. You could technically remove all classes except the soldier and the game would be totally balanced. However, no one wants that, tf2 is great for the diversity of play styles it employs.

4. The problem with skill indexing his flamethrower is that it fundamentally changes his role in tf2, therefore missing the whole point of balancing him. Also he is already very fun to play and quite viable, the problem is people don't know how to play him because they think he's a pure combat class, when in reality he is a mix of combat and support.

Also that last bit about taking me seriously is making me take you less seriously. This is a forum for discussion, you should be a little more open to viewpoints other than your own.

[Loving Wound]

Messaggio originale di Daddy:

tl;dr flamethrower guarantees too much damage (AND damage over time) in a wide area and requires no skill to use, and is therefore broken and does not belong in TF2

It doesn't help that it is also buggy.

[i killed god]

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

1. Yeah I was, and I proudly defend his core design, but you shouldn't confuse his core design with how he currently functions. There are a lot of things about him I disagree with currently.

Your idea of "defense" was using special pleading and subjective standards as opposed to objective ones to warrant your differing opinion.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

2. Getting roasted for 30 pages? Careful your bias is showing. It's called a discussion, that's the point of this forum.

Wouldn't really call it much of a discussion. In fact, most of the people that commented literally stated that reading through the thread had the complete opposite effect of what the point of the thread was supposed to be. And that's not because you failed to argue your position properly; that's because your position is simply indefensible and any sensible person with any understanding of the game mechancis in TF2 will tell you that pyro is fundamentally broken.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

3. I didn't address your thoughts because they were basically already addressed earlier in the thread towards other people.

Fair enough, I stopped reading after your first reply because you were essentially repeating the same thing in different verbiage.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

4. Wrong. As a class with the most limited range and mobility, Pyro is right next to heavy as the top class requiring positioning and situational awareness.

Ahem.
✔ 3rd highest movement speed in the game by default
✔ 2nd highest movement speed in the game with quick switch melee weapon equipped
✔ Insane vertical and horizontal movement recharging secondary utility tool that costs no health to use
✔ Self-damaging mobility tool that can also double as an arbitrarily-detonated flare gun and allows for short high jumps or horizontal skips
There are three classes that trump pyro in terms of mobility: demoman, and soldier. Both demoman and soldier's mobility tools require either a sacrifice of a crucial weapon (RL or stickybomb launcher) or sacrifice of health. Soldier's mobility also requires intensive training to use to its fullest potential at a moment's notice. Scout is INTENDED to be the most mobile class in the game while being extremely fragile. This means that pyro is more mobile than F-I-V-E out of NINE classes. I really think you should fact check yourself before spouting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like this. This is why people can't take you seriously.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

1. Like I said earlier, aim is not the only skill that requires effort. Also you clearly aren't reading my posts. I said pyro requires the other skills more than the other classes. All classes require different amounts of each skill type.

For example, Sniper takes a lot of aim, but hardly any positioning. Meanwhile engineer requires no aim but a great deal of gamesense.

You literally never so much as touched a sniper or an engineer in your life. When you have 2 spies running around your sentry nest sapping everything in sight, you need to be able to take them down quick and get rid of those sappers before your stuff blows up. And the notion that sniper - the class that is absolutely annihilated by just about any other class at close range - requires no positioning is absolutely hilarious to me.

[Mossy Snake]

1. Like I said earlier, aim is not the only skill that requires effort. Also you clearly aren't reading my posts. I said pyro requires the other skills more than the other classes. All classes require different amounts of each skill type.

For example, Sniper takes a lot of aim, but hardly any positioning. Meanwhile engineer requires no aim but a great deal of gamesense.

First off, Pyro does not require more of "other skills" than any other class. Of course he requires gamesense and positioning (like every other class, again), the problem is that those are the only skills that he requires, aside from pressing M2 every now and then. Every other class requires those skills and more. Pyro does not.
Also, Sniper requires a hell of a lot more positioning than Pyro, as he is not mobile and most effective when positioned in a way that blocks a sightline. A poorly positioned Sniper will die and won't cover a lot of ground even if he has good aim.

Pyro doesen't require much aim at all, but needs a mixture of positioning, gamesense, prediction, and timing.

Cool, so the only skills he has are the same that every other class has, just without all the extra skills that every other class requires.

2. Jetpack is not fine. It ruins the class, because it takes away the skill I'm talking about. I agree with you parkinsons needs to go. That's straight up unfair.

You sacrifice your higher-DPS secondary for mobility, and rather mediocre mobility at that. It actually needs a tiny buff if anything. It's fine. Though the lack of a health/ammo downside is rather concerning.

3. Class spirit is an important part of game balance. You could technically remove all classes except the soldier and the game would be totally balanced. However, no one wants that, tf2 is great for the diversity of play styles it employs.

You can still have Pyro function as a stream DPS flank class, the problem is that not skill-indexing him for the sake of keeping him easy is stupid. It locks him in a position where he's both useless and unfun to play against.

4. The problem with skill indexing his flamethrower is that it fundamentally changes his role in tf2

No it doesn't lol, it just makes him more effective while requiring more skill to play.

therefore missing the whole point of balancing him.

AKA your weird view that Pyro must stay easy, unfun to play against, and not very effective.

Also that last bit about taking me seriously is making me take you less seriously. This is a forum for discussion, you should be a little more open to viewpoints other than your own.

I would be open to other viewpoints if yours actually made sense. You're literally defending a class that's extremely easy to play, unfun to play against, yet not particularly effective or rewarding.

[Justice]

Then lets remove air blast so pyro would have no terms of self defence.
That would be a good penalty for easy AoE high damage class.
Spray and Pray kind of class

[Survivor]

Messaggio originale di Daddy:

Messaggio originale di Shrimpelous:

This thread is waste





Because they are not going to fix the pyro

Your life is a waste because you'll die one day, and in a few billion years, this planet won't exist anymore and nothing you ever did or will ever do will matter. What's your point?

This thread is a waste tho, They will never fix pyro because look how many times the tried to fix pyro but all they fixed was a weapon that was good or a melee

[Loving Wound]

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

4. Wrong. As a class with the most limited range and mobility, Pyro is right next to heavy as the top class requiring positioning and situational awareness.

1. Like I said earlier, aim is not the only skill that requires effort. Also you clearly aren't reading my posts. I said pyro requires the other skills more than the other classes. All classes require different amounts of each skill type.

For example, Sniper takes a lot of aim, but hardly any positioning. Meanwhile engineer requires no aim but a great deal of gamesense.

There is a skill ceiling of positioning and situational awareness. Most classes involving reaching this ceiling. Including Pyro. When Pyro players reach this ceiling they don't exactly have much else to reach Pyro's skill ceiling. Unlike most classes that reach this positioning and situational awareness skill ceiling end up still having other skills to reach the classes skill ceiling. Also worth mentioning that that even skill ceiling Pyros struggle to be more useful than other classes in high level play.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

Pyro doesen't require much aim at all, but needs a mixture of positioning, gamesense, prediction, and timing.

Which is what ever class requires. With the only exception being timing.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

2. Jetpack is not fine. It ruins the class, .

Good. Pyro's design is poor anyway. The design needs to be changed.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

3. Class spirit is an important part of game balance. You could technically remove all classes except the soldier and the game would be totally balanced. However, no one wants that, tf2 is great for the diversity of play styles it employs.

Class spirit comes second to game balanced. The TF2 team is trying to make the characters diverse without making them unbalanced. Also Pyro's class spirit is poorly design, so some changes do need to be made for the sake of balance.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

4. The problem with skill indexing his flamethrower is that it fundamentally changes his role in tf2,

Good. Pyro has no role, so he needs a role change.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

therefore missing the whole point of balancing him.

Giving him a role is the point of balancing him. Not giving him a role like the previous updates have is missing the point of balancing him.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

Also he is already. . .quite viable,

In what context?

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

the problem is people don't know how to play him because they think he's a pure combat class, when in reality he is a mix of combat and support.

There's a problem with Pyro being a mix. He's not a mix because he is good at both combat and support. He's a mix because he's mediocre at both. Also the competitive community already consider Pyro a combat and support, but they don't call it combat and support. They call it POWER and support. So people do know he is a mix of POWER and support.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

This is a forum for discussion, you should be a little more open to viewpoints other than your own.

No u

[daD]

Messaggio originale di Justice:

Then lets remove air blast so pyro would have no terms of self defence.
That would be a good penalty for easy AoE high damage class.
Spray and Pray kind of class

no.


Airblast was added with the sole reason to buff Pyro to deal with projectile classes. Don't think it's going away anytime soon.

[AimNot]

it's not even hard to counter an enemy pyro by using good positioning

[Ninjaizauwsum360]

-You do know that the dragons fury exist? That thing rewards you for good aiming with a steady stream of mid- close range of burst damage.

- Yes the jetpack is a bit broken, so my idea is to make the pyro have more damage vulnerability like 20-30% while its active.

Note: this is just my personal opinion so it's a bit biased, this is the point of a discussion

[rad_knight]

Messaggio originale di The Gayest Man:

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

What you just described is exactly what makes the Pyro great. The fact that the flamethrower takes no aim, not commitment, and deals impressive damage to crowds is the beauty of his primary, not what ruins him as a class.

"A low-skill, high damage output, AOE damage weapon that also applies DOT and requires 0 aim to use should exist in a game that has the pretension to be skill-based"

Oh boy.

\..Opinion..../
.\........l......./
..\.......l....../
...\.....v...../
....\Trash/

Weren't you the guy that made a thread in defense of the way pyro currently functions and got roasted for like 30 pages? You still never responded to any of my comments on that thread, btw.

Also, almost any class in the game requires more positioning and situational awareness than pyro does.

Low skill, high damage(80 dps is high damage now?), AoE(HA), damage over time, and requires zero aim.

Aside from damage over time, that’s the rocket launcher.

[rad_knight]

Messaggio originale di weeb ricardo:

Messaggio originale di Justice:

Then lets remove air blast so pyro would have no terms of self defence.
That would be a good penalty for easy AoE high damage class.
Spray and Pray kind of class

no.


Airblast was added with the sole reason to buff Pyro to deal with projectile classes. Don't think it's going away anytime soon.

That and if it was gone it would leave fire harder to extinguish, and soldier without a counter in any way.

[rad_knight]

Messaggio originale di The Cooler King K. Rool:

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

4. Wrong. As a class with the most limited range and mobility, Pyro is right next to heavy as the top class requiring positioning and situational awareness.

1. Like I said earlier, aim is not the only skill that requires effort. Also you clearly aren't reading my posts. I said pyro requires the other skills more than the other classes. All classes require different amounts of each skill type.

For example, Sniper takes a lot of aim, but hardly any positioning. Meanwhile engineer requires no aim but a great deal of gamesense.

-There is a skill ceiling of positioning and situational awareness. Most classes involving reaching this ceiling. Including Pyro. When Pyro players reach this ceiling they don't exactly have much else to reach Pyro's skill ceiling. Unlike most classes that reach this positioning and situational awareness skill ceiling end up still having other skills to reach the classes skill ceiling. Also worth mentioning that that even skill ceiling Pyros struggle to be more useful than other classes in high level play.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

Pyro doesen't require much aim at all, but needs a mixture of positioning, gamesense, prediction, and timing.

-Which is what ever class requires. With the only exception being timing.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

2. Jetpack is not fine. It ruins the class, .

-Good. Pyro's design is poor anyway. The design needs to be changed.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

3. Class spirit is an important part of game balance. You could technically remove all classes except the soldier and the game would be totally balanced. However, no one wants that, tf2 is great for the diversity of play styles it employs.

-Class spirit comes second to game balanced. The TF2 team is trying to make the characters diverse without making them unbalanced. Also Pyro's class spirit is poorly design, so some changes do need to be made for the sake of balance.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

4. The problem with skill indexing his flamethrower is that it fundamentally changes his role in tf2,

-Good. Pyro has no role, so he needs a role change.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

therefore missing the whole point of balancing him.

-Giving him a role is the point of balancing him. Not giving him a role like the previous updates have is missing the point of balancing him.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

Also he is already. . .quite viable,

-In what context?

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

the problem is people don't know how to play him because they think he's a pure combat class, when in reality he is a mix of combat and support.

-There's a problem with Pyro being a mix. He's not a mix because he is good at both combat and support. He's a mix because he's mediocre at both. Also the competitive community already consider Pyro a combat and support, but they don't call it combat and support. They call it POWER and support. So people do know he is a mix of POWER and support.

Messaggio originale di Uscari:

This is a forum for discussion, you should be a little more open to viewpoints other than your own.

No u

-the thing with pyro(if you ask me, which I know you didn’t but I’m telling you anyway) is he has more things to master than other classes(except spy maybe) but they’re easier overall to learn.
So somone like soldier who has to learn rocket jumping and how to aim decently, while a pyro has airblasting the different projectiles(easier said than done with some of the faster ones, but not usually necessary), spy tracking/checking(yes I know all classes can technically do this but I don’t think you can argue that turning them into a walking ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lamp isn’t more effective than shooting them once to make their cloak shimmer), comboing, and a few other things that are probobly slipping my mind.
-fair enough, but pyro still has to be the most mindful of it, since his weapon is weak with low range and can be either out ran or out damaged by most classes except sniper and engi(and if you let a pyro get that close as either of those classes that is 100% on you)
-the jet pack is just a bad weapon honestly.
-such as?
-support/jack of all trades. Weather that’s a good role is debatable but it is there.
-I don’t really know what to say to this.
-casual games. In comp he’s not great or even good, but in casual he can be good if both teams are evenly matched in a 12v12 for a few different things.
-power is just the name the community gave the role. And in the right circumstance he can do decently in combat(he probobly won’t survive, but everyone on the enemy team being on fire would definitely help your team). And weather or not pyros jack of all trades role is good is mostly a matter of perspective. Yah pyro is the worst at nearly everything he does, but no one can do as much as the pyro. Which is why some people think he’s a good class because of his versatility.
-

[Zireth]

Logging complaint #3468 about pyro because they just got stomped by a pyro.