5CP is flawed

[The Impractical Engineer]

Yeah I know some guy made a whole video explaining this, but it's true. Yesterday I had a game go for ONE full hour. Why? Because even if ONE point gets capped, 10 or so minutes is added, and this just goes back and forth. The map was Process.

If you don't already know, in short, the guys says that 5cp is flawed because if you win mid, there is no advantage to capping the next point, since you'll need to hold it for longer.

[Stink3y]

5CP and CTF both share a flaw in being split between two objectives.

5CP with mid and second, you're constantly worrying about attacking AND defending the points. Same goes for CTF in having to defend your own intel and to capture the enemy's. The threat of backcaps hinder aggressive plays which forces passiveness; it slows the game down and becomes a chore to play.

This diagram perfectly demonstrates the effects of having two objectives. This mostly applies to pubs with the larger team sizes:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1378703115

What results is both teams are split into two roles going in opposite directions making for a messy and unorganized game. In the Competitive sense it forces a versatile team composition which gets stale and boring fast. Add in 5CP's design of emphasizing speed and mobility it further restricts options if you want the optimal performance.

The solution is to have a single objective for both teams to focus on with the direction going in a linear fashion. In other words, we need asymmetric gamemodes like Attack/Defend where both teams are complete opposites which require different roles. Specialists like Heavy and Engie would be seen more often as defensive classes whereas Spy would be more useful on attacking.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1378704439

The problem for modes like Payload, Attack/Defend and CTF is the rulesets are badly unoptimized and the maps are hot garbage. This is the reason why 5CP and KOTH are the mainstays for 6s as the most "functional" gamemodes even if those modes have problems of their own as stated above.

It's all on Valve to properly optimize the environments and create new maps from scratch to take advantage of the specialists and the 6s format.

[Sawmp monster]

Going on what StinkWinky said, another problem with the maps, especially CTF, is that there's more of a mess around aspect because it's too easy to protect the control points and harder to actually retrieve them because of that, and also that the maps are designed around choke points so that team can't be steamrolled.

Overall, a better idea for the maps is that the team that's just captured a control point will have a 15-second delay before the opposite team can reclaim that control point, but opposite team will have a 30-45 second delay before their next control point can be capped, so they can set up and defend.

A few other things to mention is that they have to make it so the control points have so much space around them so that a singular sentry can't defend it, and also some more cover.

Finally, there needs to be more ammo and health available for the defending team on their final control point, and also a few height advantages.

[misut]

Originally posted by StinkyWinky:

5CP and CTF both share a flaw in being split between two objectives.

5CP with mid and second, you're constantly worrying about attacking AND defending the points. Same goes for CTF in having to defend your own intel and to capture the enemy's. The threat of backcaps hinder aggressive plays which forces passiveness; it slows the game down and becomes a chore to play.

This diagram perfectly demonstrates the effects of having two objectives. This mostly applies to pubs with the larger team sizes:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1378703115

What results is both teams are split into two roles going in opposite directions making for a messy and unorganized game. In the Competitive sense it forces a versatile team composition which gets stale and boring fast. Add in 5CP's design of emphasizing speed and mobility it further restricts options if you want the optimal performance.

The solution is to have a single objective for both teams to focus on with the direction going in a linear fashion. In other words, we need asymmetric gamemodes like Attack/Defend where both teams are complete opposites which require different roles. Specialists like Heavy and Engie would be seen more often as defensive classes whereas Spy would be more useful on attacking.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1378704439

The problem for modes like Payload, Attack/Defend and CTF is the rulesets are badly unoptimized and the maps are hot garbage. This is the reason why 5CP and KOTH are the mainstays for 6s as the most "functional" gamemodes even if those modes have problems of their own as stated above.

It's all on Valve to properly optimize the environments and create new maps from scratch to take advantage of the specialists and the 6s format.

Problem is, most A/D maps are terrible in a competitve sense. The only reason why comp players play is because they want TF2 to be an esport. The only viable A/D map I see is GravelPit. Payload has a good map pool, too bad 6s players won’t play it because “it’s too big”, and their mentality is they need to force run a cartbitch full time

[Logan]

Don't play 5CP, problem solved.

[Stink3y]

Originally posted by Minty( ‾ʖ̫‾)Fresh:

Problem is, most A/D maps are terrible in a competitve sense. The only reason why comp players play is because they want TF2 to be an esport. The only viable A/D map I see is GravelPit. Payload has a good map pool, too bad 6s players won’t play it because “it’s too big”, and their mentality is they need to force run a cartbitch full time

Uh... yeah... that's what I said...

Reading comprehension goes a long way.

Originally posted by StinkyWinky:

The problem for modes like Payload, Attack/Defend and CTF is the rulesets are badly unoptimized and the maps are hot garbage. This is the reason why 5CP and KOTH are the mainstays for 6s as the most "functional" gamemodes even if those modes have problems of their own as stated above.

[trash]

Originally posted by Minty( ‾ʖ̫‾)Fresh:

Problem is, most A/D maps are terrible in a competitve sense.

maybe with the vanilla maps and the systems we have in place right now, but i don't think the concept of a/d is inherently unusable
you just need the map to be built around the type of gameplay you want the game to run off of

it's fine for overwatch for example, but in tf2land with only 4.5 generalists and a bunch of situational/wall classes it gets iffy since the gameplay you're left with isn't particularly interesting or deep, and doesn't suit the fast paced movement based fights that koth/cp enables for the more interesting classes
with some tweaks that encourage the defenders to camp areas less, maybe with a koth-style forward hold that doesn't leave current points defenseless, it could have some potential

engie/heavy/pyro and fulltime sniper make 6v6 competitive play on fixed point defensive sides stale, but those classes aren't unchangable, and map designs can limit their use to make options other than sit-on-your-sentry practical to run

[Cee]

Originally posted by Logan:

Don't play 5CP, problem solved.

My leg is broken but i can fix the issue by not walking



I do agree that it has flaws. And it's pretty apparent aswell. It's just usually a stalemate/just slow after the last point to capture is... the last point. It's just "hold it but dont lose it when being offensive when trying to capture the last point"

Theres also the issue that most classes don't see that much use. Albeit, it isn't inherently wrong due to them being specialists, but if Valve wants to push Competetive TF2 to be better - they must have a plan to make atleast a few more classes (Pyro, Engy, Heavy) be "more generalistic" or, in another term, "more usable more often than right now".
And I certainly for one don't think making those 3 classes "more used" is impossible. Engineer just needs some mobility. With it, he could be a great "supportive" class alongside his Dispenser and (mini) Sentry, and I think some kind of a launchpad (an idea that b4nny has had for a long time). Heavy needs some mobility (balanced by less health). Pyro needs some more mobility, and/or range/insane damage output.

Overall, CP is very salvageable to be basically the best gamemode, but doubt they're gonna do that.

[drawingtoptarp™]

Make it 7 CP

[Overwatch Better.]

Respawn time is too long and with that time i could join another server...

[misut]

Originally posted by StinkyWinky:

Originally posted by Minty( ‾ʖ̫‾)Fresh:

Problem is, most A/D maps are terrible in a competitve sense. The only reason why comp players play is because they want TF2 to be an esport. The only viable A/D map I see is GravelPit. Payload has a good map pool, too bad 6s players won’t play it because “it’s too big”, and their mentality is they need to force run a cartbitch full time

Uh... yeah... that's what I said...

Reading comprehension goes a long way.

Originally posted by StinkyWinky:

The problem for modes like Payload, Attack/Defend and CTF is the rulesets are badly unoptimized and the maps are hot garbage. This is the reason why 5CP and KOTH are the mainstays for 6s as the most "functional" gamemodes even if those modes have problems of their own as stated above.

Well CTF Is just full of meme maps, attack defend has one good map, but payload isn’t that bad. The map pool is pretty good, like Badwater and Upward. The rules they use however, is the same as 6s, where multiple heavies and engineers can be run. KOTH is not a mainstay, since the only KOTH you ever see is koth_product, and that’s not even a real valve created map. Yea, I did repeat some things, but I did point out some things you didn’t mention.

[supadog]

ye it's always been flawed
it's just less worse than the others

[Deadmeat0]

5cp sucks

it is known

[76561198838713276]

too bad

[spengie the strange engie]

Is this like a no sudden death to put an end to the game kind of situation