Pyro discussion - flamethrower too weak?

[Scally]

In all my years of TF2, the one thing I've never understood is why the flamethrower has such a low damage output. I don't know if it's possible to get a warm discussion on this here.

I've always seen the Pyro as a more mobile version of the Heavy, but with the trade-off of much less health and a shorter range. But on top of that his damage output at that limited range is also much less. Plus he doesn't have anything like the sandvich. Is he just a gimp that attracts W+M1 jokes and complaints for suicidal rushes where he doesn't stand a chance of survival? This playstyle still exists in my opinion because his options are so limited. Is it because his primary is so weak that some players resort to this behaviour?

Do you think, in all fairness, that the flamethrower is too weak and an increase in damage will change some Pyro behaviour?

I used to main Pyro. It's my second most-played class. I have items I'm holding on to while we wait for the update. But when I play Pyro now, half of my points have to come from cheap kills against Spies and blinkered Snipers. I have to skulk and creep around in the Spy lanes in order to help my team, or madly flame around the cart, hoping that a Spy will blunder in too close. Or go Pybro. If I try to take on Soldiers, Demos or Heavies, even if I surprise them I'm likely to die more than half the time if they're any good. The Pyro simply can't compete with burst damage and the reaction time of the stock minigun. Why is this? I'm still struggling, after many years, to see a balance reason.

What would I change? I think the flamethrower is too weak, but not by much. Extra damage against light classes wouldn't be a big deal, but would help the Pyro against the heavier ones. I think there would actually be less headless chicken Pyros is the flamethrower had higher dps.

The only other things I'd change? Replace Reserve Shooter on Pyro and stop airblast extinguishing fire. Having Pyros countering other Pyros in that way I've always thought bad, like the Sniper mini-game on 2fort. It pushes Pyro too far into a support role in my opinion. Hmmm, thinking about it, I don't have high hopes for this coming update...

[Charlie5L]

As a fellow Pyro main...

I would say his flamethrowers are weak. Each of his flamethrowers promote creativity for a primary, from using no airblast for invulnerability and crits, to tactical crits, to reliable (stock), to overrated and hailed like a f**king god equally reliable to stock (Degreaser).

One problem with Pyro is afterburn. At first it was a pain when introduced but as we got items that help extinguish other than the Medic, Dispenser, and health kits, or add fire resistance onto the user, as well as the fact that weapons with the bleeding effect are MUCH better than afterburn (you can't extinguish afterburn and depending on the weapon, it deals a lot of damage after base damage), afterburn is a joke.

Afterburn does at least 6 damage per second over 10 seconds, which is 60. I would increase it to 8 damage over 8 seconds, which is 64. To make it at least have some strength, small health kits cannot extinguish it, while other sources of healing/extinguishing can work. Yes, I still want friendly Pyros to extinguish it, but small health packs can be a good sacrifice, as your Medic is up front and your Engineer is protecting, most likely.

W+M1 is prominent in all classes but for Pyro, it's a risky move. Yes, it can prove effective if you time in some reflects and able to dodge, but like using Degreaser+any secondary, it's only effective for a situational amount of time. The hitboxes emitting from the flamethrower are unreliable as your ping rises, making your flamethrower "realistic" and going distances where it shouldn't reach. How to fix the hitboxes, I cannot explain it. Proposing ideas to change hitboxes is a difficult task, but I would suggest a cylinder-cone shaped hitbox emitting from the flamethrower.

The Reserve Shooter can be removed from Pyro as honestly, you will deal a consistent amount of damage with Stock anyway, and the mini-crits is unnecessary. Effective, but it's better to use Stock or the flare if you wanna focus on cornering an enemy and ending their life quick. Maybe they'll add a shotgun for Pyro that does the same as Reserve Shooter, but a bit more "balanced" and not as unnecessary as the Reserve.

The Pyro's biggest weakness is always going to be hitscan. It encourages classes like Scout, Sniper, Heavy, and Soldier to think carefully if the Pyro is in close range, especially Soldier. You could either take gunboats to help rocket jumping or you can take a shotgun in the chance the Pyro goes after you and can reflect. Then it's a 1v1 Shotgun duel.

Also, the Pyro originally had 200 HP, but it's reduced now. Okay, I am pretty much finished with giving my insight about Pyro, his flamethrower, his health, and now I am off and I expect a bunch of angry people from Pyro mains to the non-Pyro mains to give me a negative response.

[Vlad the Impala]

What would I change? I think the flamethrower is too weak, but not by much. Extra damage against light classes wouldn't be a big deal, but would help the Pyro against the heavier ones. I think there would actually be less headless chicken Pyros is the flamethrower had higher dps.

A flat damage buff would just make pyro more obnoxious, while fixing none of his real issues like a stupidly forgiving firing mechanic, ease of controlling movement, massive buggy particles and an unfortunate combination of poor range and poor means of getting within range.

Problem is, a damage buff won't do anything to make his playstyle any less brainless, and that is a problem that can only be solved by addressing the actual problems with his mechanics, not by hamfisted bandaid buffs.

The only other things I'd change? Replace Reserve Shooter on Pyro and stop airblast extinguishing fire. Having Pyros countering other Pyros in that way I've always thought bad, like the Sniper mini-game on 2fort. It pushes Pyro too far into a support role in my opinion. Hmmm, thinking about it, I don't have high hopes for this coming update...

RS is gay on both pyro and soldier.

Removing the ability to extinguish for pyro would be pointless without doing the same for all the anti-afterburn unlocks in the game. And yet again, afterburn is only this weak because it's so easy to apply.

[OxideAcid]

Flamethrower is weak? Alright. I'm a Engiroldier main (I play a lot of pyro, soldier, and engie) I can assure you that the flamethrower can kill a heavy in less than 2 seconds at close range.

[Vlad the Impala]

Originally posted by Cycling Cycles:

Flamethrower is weak? Alright. I'm a Engiroldier main (I play a lot of pyro, soldier, and engie) I can assure you that the flamethrower can kill a heavy in less than 2 seconds at close range.

Correct, it takes 1.85s including afterburn.

Compare that to the Scattergun, which takes 1.25s, or the Grenade Launcher which takes 1.2s or the Rocket Launcher which takes 1.6s, or the Minigun which takes 0.5s.

Being able to delete an unbuffed heavy in less than 2 seconds isn't anything special and ignores the big advantages that other classes have, like burst damage and range.

[Cee]

I'd make it not have the fire particle shizzam, tighter cone, and like 180 dps if you can track. Oh and a small movement speed increase would make his range problem a bit less of a problem.

[Pakaku]

Flamethrowers are weaker in raw DPS because you can spray multiple enemies, spray through multiple enemies (and buildings), and deal damage even when the flamethrower isn't equipped (which would be because you're following up with shotgun/melee damage, or escaping.)

Fine with me, I just want better methods of getting in flamethrower range in the first place.

[Bonkers]

Originally posted by Pakaku:

Flamethrowers are weaker in raw DPS because you can spray multiple enemies

Stickies and Rockets have huge DPS and splash damage.

[Big Boss]

In my opinion, the little damage output is because Vavle expects for you to use other weapons such as the Flare gun or the Axtinguisher.

[Ozyruz]

Originally posted by Cycling Cycles:

Flamethrower is weak? Alright. I'm a Engiroldier main (I play a lot of pyro, soldier, and engie) I can assure you that the flamethrower can kill a heavy in less than 2 seconds at close range.

Really? Because often times a Heavy is still capable of killing a Pyro that has ambushed him and still be able to pop a sandvich.

The only exception is that he's using items that give him a damage vulnerability.

[MrFlaptastic]

And now a word from some random guy:

I feel like most people forget that Pyro is a fire based class. And what can fire do? Burn multiple people at once. So you can potentially have double the damage output if you're hitting two people at a time plus afterburn damage.

[pathulhu]

if pyro were made to aim and predict his targets like a lightning gun with fluidity then we can talk about damage

for now lets just hope you can even hit particles

[Scally]

Originally posted by MrFlaptastic:

And now a word from some random guy:

I feel like most people forget that Pyro is a fire based class. And what can fire do? Burn multiple people at once. So you can potentially have double the damage output if you're hitting two people at a time plus afterburn damage.

There's nothing unusual about being able to damage multiple people at once. It's bread and butter for Soldier and Demo, and they don't have to put themselves in the same kind of danger to do it.

[Stock]

Use the flare gun for crits